Coronavirus Hysteria

Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
374
Likes
273
Degree
1
In general, with exceptions of people who live in reality, most everyone is afraid of COVID-19... not just the elderly.

Also, I know elderly who are afraid of credit cards, VCRs, tablets and phones, and if their stimulus checks will come. They are also afraid of the Flu, cancer, and respiratory diseases. People are afraid of a lot of things.

I see what you are saying, but it doesn't lend any credibility to anything. I don't see your point here as it doesn't advance your side of the debate/viewpoint.

Just because a group of people are scared of something, doesn't mean we all pay the price for it.

My wife is scared of mice. I don't make you put rat traps in your home all over the place when you don't have a mouse problem, do I?



Sure. I know a lot of them. I don't know what they would say as I haven't polled them. However, I know just based on logic some would care, some would not. It's just math/stats on that.

However, I am sure many would care if they were on social security or a pension and those checks stopped coming, like many workers have been done recently with their jobs or businesses. I bet they would care then. It's easy not to care when you still get a check handed to you.

I wouldn't care about toilet paper until it stopped becoming available. When things are going right for you, its easy to not care. People only care when they get FOMO or when shit hits the fan for them.



The government as it is right now is inefficient, wasteful, and corrupt. It should not have any business in "looking out" for anyone in the example you intend, meaning looking out for people when it comes to bailouts and checks and money. In other examples I could say yes, in this example.. no to any.

I could find examples when government should look out for people... but in this situation as you intend.. no



Have an older brother I met only 3 times, and I also have 2 younger brothers. Grew up in a step family.

While I can imagine families where parents played favorites for real, as you grow older you realize that many times some parents do what they can, when they can. That maybe it's not favorite playing. I can see how THIS could happen in other families, but since you are asking me directly I will speak on my example.

When I was 16, my parents didn't buy me a car. I bought my own. They had 0 money. It was run down and 30 years old and I had to pay for my own gas and insurance. When I was 18, my parents promised me to help afford me to go to college, but instead they told me to try community college first for 2 years to make sure I liked it.. so I did and 2 years later they told me they couldn't help me anyways. What a waste.... I paid for that 2 years on my own and all my books and everything else. Zero help.

My 2 younger brothers on the other hand.. both got newer cars ( within 10 years old ) when they turned 16. Both of them since have had at least 5 cars EACH since then that my parents gave them for free each time. One brother got his entire college paid for and the other has had at least $30k in legal fees paid for.

I could have said my parent played favorites right? I could have been mad and upset, right?

They got cars left and right each, and college and massive amounts of debt paid off.. I on the other hand had to scratch a living from nothing with not even as much as a school book paid for.

But 1 younger brother is 8 years younger than me, the other one is 16 years younger than me.

8 years can change a family dynamic. My parents didn't have money when I was 16 and 18. They did 8 years later and 8 years later after that. They have money now, but not then.

As a mature adult, I knew that the financial situation then, was not the same as 8 years later. My parents had money at X time, when they didn't at Y time.

That's not favoritism, it's just how life plays the cards handed to you, at the time you playing. You get multiple hands in the game as time goes on. The cards weren't there for me when I was 16, they were when my brothers were.

And this isn't all about money. Parents can play what seems favoritism in other ways, that are not really favoritism. It's just the situation at that time and place and under those conditions.

If my parents did play favorites, it paid off in my favor. I did get the favoritism in the end. Im the only one that hasn't needed a dime from them my whole life. I can pay my bills and Im not a heroin addict who got their kid taken away from them. I don't have to rely on my mom at 34 years old to supply me and my children supper at night.

Also at this time, my grandmother is doing her will and leaving her house/estate to 2 kids. There are 6 kids total. The other 4 are pissed off and saying grandma is playing favorites. Sounds reasonable to claim that, right?

But the 2 kids she is leaving her estate too are pretty much homeless and jobless and unmarried with no life or social skills. The other 4 own their own homes, cars, and are doing well and are married and from all other view points need no help money wise. So is this really favoritism, or making sure the ones that need help, actually get it while the others who don't need help don't snatch it away from the ones that do?

I am positive some families play favorites. I am smart enough to know that. However, again I don't see where this point adds to your debate/viewpoint though.



Why do you think lifting the quarantine would cause chaos? We have no data on that. We have never seen this in our lifetime to know it will do that. This is pure assumption going on.

We don't live in a vacuum. We have no proof it would.

There is no evidence you have that we would be led to stagnation or degradation if we lift the quarantine.

In fact, we are right now at degradation when it comes to how the markets are doing. So being in quarantine has actually produced this already.



Ok, you point out SSA. But you know what I meant.

We have never shut down the country or even put masks on our face before and stood 6 feet apart in any other time ( in our lifetimes ) for the elderly. You know what I was mentioning. Come on.

However you picked out the SSA instead as a counter.

Cool.

Social Security, depending on when you define it as a program, was actually a system developed for the poor, not the elderly. It was brought over from "poor laws" that have been around since ancient times. Granted one could make an argument that the elderly are poor, but this concept was not just for elderly.

If we then forward to the first SS program that resembles somewhat helping people in the US, that program was actually intended for disabled civil war veterans and widows and children of those vets who died in combat. Again, not elderly.

Past that, Social Security ( as we know officially as SS monthly benefits from the SSA ) did not come about until 1935 as lump sum payments ( 1940 ushered in monthly payments ). This is what was called "old age pension" and it only came about as a result of the Great Depression. But it's not actually for old age, it's actually for a lot of other things too that do not involve the elderly like disabled people and orphans, etc.

If America really cares about the elderly with SSA, why do you have to pay into it all your life to get it? Why are your benefits determined by what you worked and how much you made? If American really cared, you would not have had to pay into it most of your life ( or be married to someone who did ) and then get a check that is determined by what you paid in. They determine you benefits by the average of the highest amounts you made over ( i think ) 25 years.

If America cared, it would just cut a check to anyone aged 67 or older for the same amount given to everyone. Not based on what your average pay in was over X years ( or what your spouse did ).

But no, its a tax you already pay into ( you or your spouse ) and MAYBE get later if you don't die before your old enough. if you die, you get nothing... gee thanks! So really, it's money YOU PAID IN YOURSELF AS A SAVINGS ACCOUNT, except you don't get it unless you live to be 67 ( or 64 if taking early ) and you only get little chunks of each month. Hope you don't die anytime soon once you start getting it... that's a waste of all your money!

Also if America cared, why would politicians have robbed it left and right for so many years to feed into other programs? This is why it's a tax. it can be used for other "causes" as deemed fit.

We don't care about the elderly. It's a ploy to get you to mind your p's and q's and do as you're told playing on your heart strings. A cause to get you to rally behind and look the other way while you get pulled over the barrel.

.
If you struggled by the bootstraps to get to where you are, it doesn't mean that everyone else has to go through the same experience too. This might be hard to accept, as it'll take a bit of self-forgiveness; but, if the state offered free college when you were younger, your life would be easier. Same with healthcare, retirement, and paying for children. There's only so many things that people deem important to life and, if the state can take care of those things, the quality of life for all individuals in that country would be better.

Here's a list of programs that I'm for:
  1. Children's money (Kindergeld) - 50% of the cost of having a child is given to the Head of Household, for up to 3 children. This way, any parent who wants to have children can. Parenting shouldn't be something that's reserved for those who can afford it. Likewise, a good childhood shouldn't be something that's reserved for those whose family can afford it. All children should get a good childhood.
  2. Permanent unemployment at the poverty line - If you don't want to work or can't work, you get to live at the poverty line. Will you go hungry? No, you won't be suffering from hunger; but, at the same time, you won't be living a comfortable life either. For entrepreneurs, this will allow them to take greater risks in projects that don't have a clear ROI right away. For example, Skype and Spotify came from countries where they had generous welfare programs. The founders there were able to make tools that didn't have to make a profit, yet are really valuable to society.
  3. Free Internet - Pretty obvious that people need Internet in today's society. It should be a basic right.
  4. Free college - Higher education shouldn't be reserved for the rich either. It should be accessible for all, as long as they can meet the requirements of attending the school. We shouldn't waste beautiful minds, just because they happened to come from a poor family.
  5. Free trade schools - Same as above but for those who want to work with their hands instead of with their mind.
  6. Free healthcare - Health care debt is what causes many people to go into bankruptcy. Also, a for-profit healthcare system is only set up to maximize profit. Healthcare shouldn't be about maximizing profit as this pandemic shows that there's other concerns, such as preparing for a pandemic.
I get that you're a Libertarian but, even in Libertarian philosophy, there's a wide spectrum of the role of Government. Should firefighters be public or private? What about the police? What about education? What about roads and public infrastructure? What about parks? Odd but the Libertarian party can advocate for a lot of public welfare policies, a lot more than what you'd think a free-market capitalism party would advocate for. One of the reason is that collective bargaining gives each individual an advantage compared to individually bargaining for that good or service. It just makes financial sense, since it employs the economy of scale. Secondly, there are market failures. The free market can't account for everything. We need government to account for market failures. Third, we need Government to provide services that are impossible in the free-market, such as a neutral party to enforce contracts. If there were no courts, how would two parties agree to and fulfill a contract?

If you happen to be an anarchist Libertarian, then you're more than free to be one; but, anarchy is not a realistic policy for a nation of 200 million people. That might be your desired Utopia, but it isn't realistic. You'd still need Government, which has sovereignty over you, like it or not. The fact that you're still in society implies that you consent to the Government.

Good post. I agree with a lot of it. Social security is interesting, and now I'm moving way off topic ... but I've been thinking a lot about this lately.

There are actually a few very valid points for having social security (and even universal basic income).

It's also more relevant than earlier.

Manual jobs are disappearing. I'm not talking about the whole A.I. is taking our jobs thing, but even simple jobs now require certain computer skills. Dealing with technology and computers is required for most jobs, even previously "simple" jobs.

Repairing a car now is way different than repairing cars 20 years ago. When you're in the military now, you deal with much more advanced technology, it's not just giving a person a gun anymore. There will always be manual jobs, just not enough, and still, intelligence is something people are born with.

Operating a computer, abstract problem solving, and learning multiple languages will take a certain intelligence, and more jobs are requiring these skills. Ideally, anyone that lost their job could just re-train for a new job, in something "hot" like coding - but it's not possible for many people. We're all at a forum for online marketing and building "online stuff", so chances are that most people in here are above average intelligence, and it may be hard to understand that many people don't even know how a computer works - or even have the cognition to learn how to use one.

So when the cutting point for employment increases, let's say in terms of IQ, a larger fraction of the population are unemployable. If average IQ is 100 (I have no clue, and I'm not saying IQ it the best measure), half will have an IQ below average. Though intelligence is an abstract measure, and hard to quantify, it's not something that can be trained beyond a certain point. Which has been fine for thousands of years - I guess.

Basically, more people are left behind as society progresses - but we all want progress.

For the same reasons, retirement, as we have it today, won't be around for many more years. Since jobs are less labor-intensive and people live longer, there is no reason why you should stop working at some arbitrary number like 62-67 years old.

From a cost point of view, it's cheaper to pay out money to poor people than the consequences of having more poor people. Paying some tax/contributions is a small cost to be able to have lower crime, a more educated population, and more stability, and you can make more money in the end in a society like that. To put out the fires afterward is much more expensive (prisons, crime prevention, hospital beds ..).

It attracts more business and build more wealth. Most people, even in high paying jobs in high tax countries, are barely paying their share. The bulk of the bill is paid by businesses and a few rich guys (really rich, not online money rich). But then again, they benefit by having a whole society full of consumers with purchasing power, with skills to fill the jobs they need.

It's easy to recoup the cost. Making money isn't that hard, and I'm sure it's probably harder in a poor country with no/low tax.

Basically, it's a cheap way of keeping stability in society - sort of an ante you have to pay to play the modern society business game. It seems unfair when you look at isolated cases, I think it's unfair too when people get free money and I don't, but it works well.

The systems: social security, taxes, education, and retirement haven't kept up with the dynamics of modern society though, so sooner or later it will have to change.
Yup. We need a welfare state in this day and age. Free market capitalism and Libertarianism came about when the Industrial revolution was just beginning. We went through Modernism and are not in post-Modernism. Those ideas served its purpose but we need a welfare state or else we'll be regressing.
 

eliquid

Digital Strategist
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Messages
800
Likes
1,741
Degree
3
if the state offered free college when you were younger, your life would be easier. Same with healthcare, retirement, and paying for children. There's only so many things that people deem important to life and, if the state can take care of those things, the quality of life for all individuals in that country would be better.
Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you are living in an assumption dream land.

We don't know my life would be easier if the state offered free college when I was younger.

We don't know if people's lives would be easier ( since you said "same with" ) with free healthcare, retirement, or paying for children. The rules and restrictions and changes that would come with "free" anything from the government ( just look at EIDL and PPP recently ) would def. not make things easier for a lot of people.

And saying ( if you do end up saying ) that, "it has worked in Canada or Sweden, etc" doesn't prove much either. Since every countrys demographic and culture are different and we don't live in a vacuum.. we can't say we would get the same end result here.

I do get what you were meaning to say, but at the same time I have to point out we don't know if my life would be easier or anyone else's life because the changes and rules and restrictions would for sure f* everything up for lots of people. And at what price do we end up ultimately paying for this in the end years to come? The money comes from somewhere, right?

My mother in law is on her retirement SS benefits, along with her husband. Me and my wife have to go over there every week and do her bills for her. She is also on Medicare. Every week we go over for 2-3 hours and do her bills for her.

She constantly gets letters about how SS overpaid her and they are taking away the benefits next month, holding her check ransom ( remember when you said this in the 2020 election thread? ). Then she gets another where they underpaid her and she is getting more next month. Then her husband got one where he isn't getting any SS for 3 months because the year before he claimed SS, he was on unemployment and they are recouping that money.

How is any of this making their lives ( and mine ) any easier?

Prior to this, we never had to do this. There is nothing wrong with her mentally, she does not have more bills now than before.

But her being on SS and Medicare has caused all kinds of issues ( way too many than I can get into on this forum post ) that has made her life ( and MINE btw ) way more f*ing complicated than before.

Also, my dad went on SS as well last year. I didn't have to go help him myself, but every time I talk to him I have to hear how it has messed him up in his finances and healthcare and he even gets to go to a VA hospital too for free stuff on top of it. It's a cluster f* show.

I know how the government does stuff. I know what just happened with "free money" with the EIDL and PPP too and with SSA and Medicare. The rules and restrictions and frequent changes causes more complex issues than if you just went and worked and made your own money and carried your own private health insurance.

Things aren't made easier typically when someone is telling you what you can and can't do with what you got for free.

If you don't care about shit and are willing to live in torture mentally about the hoops you have to jump through and then get it taken away at any notice, then yeah.. that type of person can live an easier life on the teet of the government.

For all others, there is nothing "easy" about that. Especially when the others are paying for that out of their taxes and work, and also having to pick up the slack after work to help those in their family on these shitty programs.

I get that you're a Libertarian but,
I'm not. Never said I was.

I am also not anti-government. I only stated that I feel government doesn't have a place in bailing people out when it comes to money like the situation we are in now.

If you struggled by the bootstraps to get to where you are, it doesn't mean that everyone else has to go through the same experience too. This might be hard to accept, as it'll take a bit of self-forgiveness; but,
I remember somewhere you said America wasn't going to the greatness ( Im summarizing here ) that it was in the 50's, that it's going to stagnation and degredation.

I am positive people would agree that more people in the 50's ( which you think was great ) pulled themselves up by the bootstraps more than today's generation. That's one of the things that made them great.

They pulled themselves up by the bootstraps and didn't have all these entitlement programs. Had some, but it was much different and not many.

Today though? It looks MORE like the future you want than the 50's that you think was great.

Maybe less government entitlement programs and more bootstrapping is what is needed.

So no self forgiveness here.

You can't hark back to the great 50's and then ignore what I just brought up above.

Bootstrap experience breeds ideas and culture. Those people in the 50's grew up out of the depression of the 30's. They had to bootstrap and pull themselves up. That's what made the 50's that you pointed out, so great. They lived in times of massive failure.

People today aren't experiencing failures.

Failures is what leads to success. Failures mean you did something. It also means, hopefully you learned.

I hope my kids fail all their life in stuff. It the only thing that will lead to success for them, in all areas of their life. They won't have a false sense of what it takes to actually live life and will be better off in many ways.

Hard to say and think about for my kids? Yes. But it's what I know will teach them better than anything.

The "great" America you talk about grew up out of lots of failures. There is none of that really today in the sum of it all.

Everyone is getting participation trophies, free college ( a lot did in the 90's and 00's ) or really easy stupid college loans they don't have to work to get, safe places, and more where they don't experience failure or loss in "earning something". Many "adults" today have their mom and dad paying their cell phone bills, car payments, vacations, and student loans.

Yeah that shit wasn't happening in the 50's.

They think they are entitled to this. No failures. All safe areas and any slips are felt on cushy cotton pillows that mom or dad ( or the government ) bails them out of.

I think a little bootstrapping and pulling themselves out of the shit pond is what is exactly in order for a lot of people actually in this country. The sad truth is, so many of them have been brainwashed with entitlement they would blame their shit pond on someone else, instead of themselves and their non-action taking. They've never had to pull themselves up and bootstrap, so they don't know any better. They don't know or understand any other scenario or option. They are pretty much helpless.

To me, that is abuse.

.
 
Last edited:

Jared

Breaking the Shackles of a Lifetime of Bummery
Joined
Apr 27, 2015
Messages
370
Likes
343
Degree
2
Another antibodies study. This time Miami.

 
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
374
Likes
273
Degree
1
Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you are living in an assumption dream land.

We don't know my life would be easier if the state offered free college when I was younger.

We don't know if people's lives would be easier ( since you said "same with" ) with free healthcare, retirement, or paying for children. The rules and restrictions and changes that would come with "free" anything from the government ( just look at EIDL and PPP recently ) would def. not make things easier for a lot of people.

And saying ( if you do end up saying ) that, "it has worked in Canada or Sweden, etc" doesn't prove much either. Since every countrys demographic and culture are different and we don't live in a vacuum.. we can't say we would get the same end result here.

I do get what you were meaning to say, but at the same time I have to point out we don't know if my life would be easier or anyone else's life because the changes and rules and restrictions would for sure f* everything up for lots of people. And at what price do we end up ultimately paying for this in the end years to come? The money comes from somewhere, right?

My mother in law is on her retirement SS benefits, along with her husband. Me and my wife have to go over there every week and do her bills for her. She is also on Medicare. Every week we go over for 2-3 hours and do her bills for her.

She constantly gets letters about how SS overpaid her and they are taking away the benefits next month, holding her check ransom ( remember when you said this in the 2020 election thread? ). Then she gets another where they underpaid her and she is getting more next month. Then her husband got one where he isn't getting any SS for 3 months because the year before he claimed SS, he was on unemployment and they are recouping that money.

How is any of this making their lives ( and mine ) any easier?

Prior to this, we never had to do this. There is nothing wrong with her mentally, she does not have more bills now than before.

But her being on SS and Medicare has caused all kinds of issues ( way too many than I can get into on this forum post ) that has made her life ( and MINE btw ) way more f*ing complicated than before.

Also, my dad went on SS as well last year. I didn't have to go help him myself, but every time I talk to him I have to hear how it has messed him up in his finances and healthcare and he even gets to go to a VA hospital too for free stuff on top of it. It's a cluster f* show.

I know how the government does stuff. I know what just happened with "free money" with the EIDL and PPP too and with SSA and Medicare. The rules and restrictions and frequent changes causes more complex issues than if you just went and worked and made your own money and carried your own private health insurance.

Things aren't made easier typically when someone is telling you what you can and can't do with what you got for free.

If you don't care about shit and are willing to live in torture mentally about the hoops you have to jump through and then get it taken away at any notice, then yeah.. that type of person can live an easier life on the teet of the government.

For all others, there is nothing "easy" about that. Especially when the others are paying for that out of their taxes and work, and also having to pick up the slack after work to help those in their family on these shitty programs.


I'm not. Never said I was.

I am also not anti-government. I only stated that I feel government doesn't have a place in bailing people out when it comes to money like the situation we are in now.


I remember somewhere you said America wasn't going to the greatness ( Im summarizing here ) that it was in the 50's, that it's going to stagnation and degredation.

I am positive people would agree that more people in the 50's ( which you think was great ) pulled themselves up by the bootstraps more than today's generation. That's one of the things that made them great.

They pulled themselves up by the bootstraps and didn't have all these entitlement programs. Had some, but it was much different and not many.

Today though? It looks MORE like the future you want than the 50's that you think was great.

Maybe less government entitlement programs and more bootstrapping is what is needed.

So no self forgiveness here.

You can't hark back to the great 50's and then ignore what I just brought up above.

Bootstrap experience breeds ideas and culture. Those people in the 50's grew up out of the depression of the 30's. They had to bootstrap and pull themselves up. That's what made the 50's that you pointed out, so great. They lived in times of massive failure.

People today aren't experiencing failures.

Failures is what leads to success. Failures mean you did something. It also means, hopefully you learned.

I hope my kids fail all their life in stuff. It the only thing that will lead to success for them, in all areas of their life. They won't have a false sense of what it takes to actually live life and will be better off in many ways.

Hard to say and think about for my kids? Yes. But it's what I know will teach them better than anything.

The "great" America you talk about grew up out of lots of failures. There is none of that really today in the sum of it all.

Everyone is getting participation trophies, free college ( a lot did in the 90's and 00's ) or really easy stupid college loans they don't have to work to get, safe places, and more where they don't experience failure or loss in "earning something". Many "adults" today have their mom and dad paying their cell phone bills, car payments, vacations, and student loans.

Yeah that shit wasn't happening in the 50's.

They think they are entitled to this. No failures. All safe areas and any slips are felt on cushy cotton pillows that mom or dad ( or the government ) bails them out of.

I think a little bootstrapping and pulling themselves out of the shit pond is what is exactly in order for a lot of people actually in this country. The sad truth is, so many of them have been brainwashed with entitlement they would blame their shit pond on someone else, instead of themselves and their non-action taking. They've never had to pull themselves up and bootstrap, so they don't know any better. They don't know or understand any other scenario or option. They are pretty much helpless.

To me, that is abuse.

.
You know, you write all that and you're the one supporting Trump, the president who was raised with a silver spoon and who golfs way too much, more than he criticizes Obama for. He doesn't have the same values as you. He cheats on his wife. He's not religious. He's lying to you. He's been caught in lies left and right. He's uninformed and uneducated. He's not doing a good job.

How do you respond to this?
 

eliquid

Digital Strategist
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Messages
800
Likes
1,741
Degree
3
You know, you write all that and you're the one supporting Trump, the president who was raised with a silver spoon and who golfs way too much, more than he criticizes Obama for. He doesn't have the same values as you. He cheats on his wife. He's not religious. He's lying to you. He's been caught in lies left and right. He's uninformed and uneducated. He's not doing a good job.

How do you respond to this?
So your counter is to go off point and try to spin the convo to something else entirely not part of the discussion here?

hmm....

OK, I'll go down your rabbit hole spinning the convo around again off point from the counter.

All of your arguments about TRUMP in your spin right here is about morality. That he cheats on wife, not religious, he lies, criticizes people for the same he does, etc.

Let he that have no sin cast the first stone.

You want to judge Trump for all this, but was Obama perfect? Did Obama never lie?

Would Hillary have been perfect?

Biden or Bernie?

Who would you have voted for that was a perfect moral choice?

Have you never sinned?

Have you never lied or thought about a woman in an unpure way in your mind? Maybe someone else's wife? Did you know thinking about another man's wife is adultery when it comes to morality in the bible ( since you brought up religion in your statement )?

Knowing humans, I can bet you have lied or thought unpure thoughts about a woman, maybe a woman who was married ( maybe you knew or didn't know ). That maybe you were uneducated on a choice once in your life.

How much education do you have? I bet I could find someone smarter than you and then say you are uneducated in comparison.

But that does that mean I should hate or dislike you?

Even though we have gone back and forth in this thread and another, I don't hate or dislike you.

I wouldn't prevent you from getting a job somewhere or bash you in other forums and websites or convos unless you where there yourself and we were in a convo already there.

So why would I do this to Trump?

He won the election, he is my and your President regardless.

His flaws are no different than yours as a human.

If you have never sinned morally, please say so in this thread so we can judge you too.

By the way, I don't vote in political leaders based on the issues you brought up, because everyone that could be voted in has the same moral background for the most part.

I wouldn't have voted for Hillary or a Dem in this last election. I have voted Dem before though.

Times change, situations change, people change.

I vote on a different set of circumstances than what you brought up in this spin.

.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
374
Likes
273
Degree
1
So your counter is to go off point and try to spin the convo to something else entirely not part of the discussion here?

hmm....

OK, I'll go down your rabbit hole spinning the convo around again off point from the counter.

All of your arguments about TRUMP in your spin right here is about morality. That he cheats on wife, not religious, he lies, criticizes people for the same he does, etc.

Let he that have no sin cast the first stone.

You want to judge Trump for all this, but was Obama perfect? Did Obama never lie?

Would Hillary have been perfect?

Biden or Bernie?

Who would you have voted for that was a perfect moral choice?

Have you never sinned?

Have you never lied or thought about a woman in an unpure way in your mind? Maybe someone else's wife? Did you know thinking about another man's wife is adultery when it comes to morality in the bible ( since you brought up religion in your statement )?

Knowing humans, I can bet you have lied or thought unpure thoughts about a woman, maybe a woman who was married ( maybe you knew or didn't know ). That maybe you were uneducated on a choice once in your life.

How much education do you have? I bet I could find someone smarter than you and then say you are uneducated in comparison.

But that does that mean I should hate or dislike you?

Even though we have gone back and forth in this thread and another, I don't hate or dislike you.

I wouldn't prevent you from getting a job somewhere or bash you in other forums and websites or convos unless you where there yourself and we were in a convo already there.

So why would I do this to Trump?

He won the election, he is my and your President regardless.

His flaws are no different than yours as a human.

If you have never sinned morally, please say so in this thread so we can judge you too.

By the way, I don't vote in political leaders based on the issues you brought up, because everyone that could be voted in has the same moral background for the most part.

I wouldn't have voted for Hillary or a Dem in this last election. I have voted Dem before though.

Times change, situations change, people change.

I vote on a different set of circumstances than what you brought up in this spin.

.
You're able to overlook all that. Ok...
 
Joined
Apr 23, 2019
Messages
70
Likes
38
Degree
0
Cheating on a wife doesn't affect policy. Besides look at every other politician. Biden is accused of some very shady stuff with the ladies. Bill Clinton? Etc etc etc.

He doesn't have the same values? I don't think you know his values. Or mine, or Eliquids. Or anyone else for that matter. Besides some values might overlap, some might not. It's not black or white.

He's not religious. If not, so what? And if he was, so what? As long as the president isn't an extremist, it's fine.

He's lying to us? Like every other politician?

Do you suddenly hate the uneducated? He became president. That doesn't happen by sheer luck, I'm sorry to inform you.

He's not doing a good job? Says who? I reckon he's doing at least "decent". Wish it was better. But I hoped the same from Obama, Bush and Clinton.
 

eliquid

Digital Strategist
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Messages
800
Likes
1,741
Degree
3
You're able to overlook all that. Ok...
I can overlook that, because you have done those same things at some point as a human.

So has Obama, Biden, Bernie, Hillary and everyone else on this earth.

If you think there is someone out there perfect, you are really not living in reality.

Just because Trump got caught and someone else ( candidate X ) didn't, doesn't mean it hasn't happen. This makes everything else equal and crosses out between candidates for that subject matter.

If you're human, you have lied.

If you're human, you have lusted after another person in some way ( cheating or adultery ).

You telling me that Bernie, Biden, Obama, Hillary or anyone else hasn't done this?

You've never gossiped about someone, and then did the same thing later on.. maybe years later or even years prior? Never? Maybe you haven't noticed you have.

I like how you don't answer my questions and instead try to switch the direction.

Not sure if I am hitting a nerve on you, or if you can't answer because you know deep down I'm right.

Pointing out human flaws, never wins. At some point you and all the other candidates and every human on earth has done these same things. With that, there is no one on this subject matter that is above Trump when it comes to morality.

That's why my vote is not based on those things.

Also, I've voted Dem before. I look at the issues on the table and how the vote impacts me and us as a country 10-20 years later, not the next 2-4 years. This is why morality ( along with what I have said above ) is not a factor in my voting.

Everyone has lied, gossiped, or cheated in some way as a human. That includes all his competitors that could have been President too. So, why even bring it up?

.
 

CCarter

If they cease to believe in u, do u even exist?
Staff member
BuSo Pro
Boot Camp
Digital Strategist
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
2,769
Likes
6,149
Degree
6
We're at 26.4 million unemployed - 4.4 million added week of April 18th:

 
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Messages
266
Likes
133
Degree
1
All this reminds me of running grants cpa rebills back in the day :wink:
 
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
374
Likes
273
Degree
1
Also, I've voted Dem before. I look at the issues on the table and how the vote impacts me and us as a country 10-20 years later, not the next 2-4 years. This is why morality ( along with what I have said above ) is not a factor in my voting.
Bringing us back to the topic of this thread; how is lifting the quarantine good for the country in 10-20 years? How is it not short term thinking, when people's lives are at risk?
 
Joined
Apr 23, 2019
Messages
70
Likes
38
Degree
0
If you don't re-open the economy:
More people become unemployed. More poor people. This leads to more death.
More people become unemployed, and lose their health insurance. This leads to more death.
More people become unemployed, feel they lost their purpose in life, and kill themselves. More death.
USA may loose it's economic edge over other countries. Leading to an extended period of above problems.
The government is now spending even more money it doesn't have. Many believe that future generations will be disadvantaged because of this.

That's just the first things that spring to mind. People's lives (and future lives) are at risk even if you don't lift the quarantine.

I'm not saying it's the right call. But you have to weigh ALL the negatives against ALL the positives before making the decisions that it's a good idea or not.

Lifting the quarantine could alleviate above problems. It might result in more death, and more problems.
I don't know. I don't think you do either.

Fewer people employed also means fewer people to pay taxes (and when they do pay, they pay a lower amount because they made less money). A socialist might argue we need those taxes to help the poor and disadvantaged.
 
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
374
Likes
273
Degree
1
If you don't re-open the economy:
More people become unemployed. More poor people. This leads to more death.
More people become unemployed, and lose their health insurance. This leads to more death.
More people become unemployed, feel they lost their purpose in life, and kill themselves. More death.
USA may loose it's economic edge over other countries. Leading to an extended period of above problems.
The government is now spending even more money it doesn't have. Many believe that future generations will be disadvantaged because of this.

That's just the first things that spring to mind. People's lives (and future lives) are at risk even if you don't lift the quarantine.

I'm not saying it's the right call. But you have to weigh ALL the negatives against ALL the positives before making the decisions that it's a good idea or not.

Lifting the quarantine could alleviate above problems. It might result in more death, and more problems.
I don't know. I don't think you do either.

Fewer people employed also means fewer people to pay taxes (and when they do pay, they pay a lower amount because they made less money). A socialist might argue we need those taxes to help the poor and disadvantaged.
I don't believe that economic recessions or unemployment causes death. I believe that coronavirus can cause and has already caused deaths.

There's long term economic consequences when a country's population has a rapid decline. The first one is that they'll be fewer consumers, which would decrease the demand for good and services. It might be an inconvenience to stay in quarantine; but, 10-20 years from now, we'd still want those members of the public to be around, consuming stuff.

The only companies that will suffer during this time are those who didn't prepare well enough with a 2 year emergency fund. That'll leave more for the rest of us.
 
Joined
Apr 23, 2019
Messages
70
Likes
38
Degree
0
If you don't see how bad economics can lead to more death... I don't know what to say.
I even gave the example of health insurance.
It is also well established that people losing their jobs (and sense of purpose) leads to increased suicide rates. Maybe not as high as Corona deaths, but I wouldn't bet on it.
My grandfather (he's almost 80 now) has never went more than 2 weeks without working, before this crisis.
Guess how he is feeling right now? Yes, the man still went to work, every single day before this crisis. (Okay, some Sundays he took off).

I would have thought that you knew that poor neighborhoods have a worse life expectancy...

I agree that people dying also has a negative economic effect. You only asked for reasons to re-open the economy.

The only companies that will suffer during this time are those who didn't prepare well enough with a 2 year emergency fund. That'll leave more for the rest of us.
Meaning small businesses. The normal people. Average Joe's.
Not very compassionate.

You also seem to forget that individuals also get affected. People losing their job and purpose. And it might take a long while before the economy gets back on track.
How many Americans are living paycheck to paycheck? I guess it's their own fault they could lose their home because they don't have a 2 year emergency fund?

If the quarantine doesn't get lifted now, how long would it take? It is possible a vaccine will never happen.
It's possible it would take 2 years. It could be 10 or 15. Nobody knows.

I noticed you skipped past a lot of arguments.

Bringing us back to the topic of this thread; how is lifting the quarantine good for the country in 10-20 years?
That's what I'm trying to answer. Again, it COULD be better to keep the quarantine, there is no definitive way to know. But it's easy to give arguments to do so.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
374
Likes
273
Degree
1
If you don't see how bad economics can lead to more death... I don't know what to say.
I even gave the example of health insurance.
It is also well established that people losing their jobs (and sense of purpose) leads to increased suicide rates. Maybe not as high as Corona deaths, but I wouldn't bet on it.
My grandfather (he's almost 80 now) has never went more than 2 weeks without working, before this crisis.
Guess how he is feeling right now? Yes, the man still went to work, every single day before this crisis. (Okay, some Sundays he took off).

I would have thought that you knew that poor neighborhoods have a worse life expectancy...

I agree that people dying also has a negative economic effect. You only asked for reasons to re-open the economy.


Meaning small businesses. The normal people. Average Joe's.
Not very compassionate.

You also seem to forget that individuals also get affected. People losing their job and purpose. And it might take a long while before the economy gets back on track.
How many Americans are living paycheck to paycheck? I guess it's their own fault they could lose their home because they don't have a 2 year emergency fund?

If the quarantine doesn't get lifted now, how long would it take? It is possible a vaccine will never happen.
It's possible it would take 2 years. It could be 10 or 15. Nobody knows.

I noticed you skipped past a lot of arguments.


That's what I'm trying to answer. Again, it COULD be better to keep the quarantine, there is no definitive way to know. But it's easy to give arguments to do so.
There's a difference between perceived death and actual death. COVID-19 causes actual death. The feeling of "dying", from a loss of purpose doesn't actually cause death. It might be depression. Your grandpa might be depressed. The quarantine is causing mental strain. That's known.

Could people who lose their employer provided health insurance die? No, not really. Welfare exists. They can still seek treatment with Medicaid. At the worse, they can just go to the ER, say they can't pay the bill, and go into debt, and file for bankruptcy. That's how many do it already, unfortunately.

There's a big leap in reason from concluding "I'm unemployed" to "I'm going to kill myself." I doubt that the current situation is that dire.

There's the SBA loans and unemployment. That's the role of Government. When the economy fails, the Government needs to step in and take action.

I don't answer a lot of people's questions because the questions presuppose and assume things that I do not agree with and do not have the effort to answer.

For example, in this very discussion, the difference in assumptions is between what I define as "a good life" and what you and your grandpa define as "a good life." If you ask the question "What is a good life?" Would anyone respond with "To work a lot?" No, not really. The bulk of your argument actually boils down to your definition of a good life; but, to go into discussion such as "What is a good life?" is way, way off topic of this thread. Also, if we did, we could be able to discern from past thinkers, who wrote papers on their views of a good life. Ah, Philosophy. How wonderful. Maybe another time.

It sounds like your grandpa never sat down and asked these questions. If he did, he wouldn't be so down! Man, I love philosophy.
 
Joined
Apr 23, 2019
Messages
70
Likes
38
Degree
0
There's a difference between perceived death and actual death. COVID-19 causes actual death. The feeling of "dying", from a loss of purpose doesn't actually cause death. It might be depression. Your grandpa might be depressed. The quarantine is causing mental strain. That's known.

Could people who lose their employer provided health insurance die? No, not really. Welfare exists. They can still seek treatment with Medicaid. At the worse, they can just go to the ER, say they can't pay the bill, and go into debt, and file for bankruptcy. That's how many do it already, unfortunately.

There's a big leap in reason from concluding "I'm unemployed" to "I'm going to kill myself." I doubt that the current situation is that dire.

There's the SBA loans and unemployment. That's the role of Government. When the economy fails, the Government needs to step in and take action.

I don't answer a lot of people's questions because the questions presuppose and assume things that I do not agree with and do not have the effort to answer.

For example, in this very discussion, the difference in assumptions is between what I define as "a good life" and what you and your grandpa define as "a good life." If you ask the question "What is a good life?" Would anyone respond with "To work a lot?" No, not really. The bulk of your argument actually boils down to your definition of a good life; but, to go into discussion such as "What is a good life?" is way, way off topic of this thread. Also, if we did, we could be able to discern from past thinkers, who wrote papers on their views of a good life. Ah, Philosophy. How wonderful. Maybe another time.

It sounds like your grandpa never sat down and asked these questions. If he did, he wouldn't be so down! Man, I love philosophy.
Mental strain causes death. Come on now.

MANY people don't take their recommended medication because THEY CAN NOT AFFORD IT. For example, they only take the pills for their diabetes and not their heart disease.
I know this because some heart-wrenching documentaries about the heartlessness of Trump.
Come on, you seem to be willfully ignoring facts to suite your narrative. Economic difficulties don't help in these matters. Why are we even debating this? It's clear as day.

Going to the ER and not paying the bill causes problems as well. And if the only time people get medical attention is when they go to the ER (because they can't afford medical care), it's going to result in more death's. This is starting to look like you just want to ignore the problems it causes.

I never mentioned "a good life", WTF. Stop shifting goal posts. My point is that every situation is different, and you seem to forget a lot of different situations. My grandpa isn't just "unhappy". The man is miserable. For some reason you think that can't or won't result in death. In this specific case you may be right (I really hope so). But let's not pretend no people will end their own suffering.

It's not just that he can't go to work. He lost his sense of purpose. Can't have his grandchildren visit. He has nothing to do but watch TV (and read I guess). And this hasn't been going on for just a week. It has been month's now. Might be many more month's. From his perspective things are pretty bleak.

You ignored the family businesses going down. You ignored the time-frame question. Everyone knows the time-frame is important for this.
Why? Because you don't have the energy?
It certainly looks like you didn't answer it because there is no decent counter argument. Small businesses will be in trouble, and it will have a lasting affect on people's life and health. Guess it doesn't fit the narrative.

I have answered your per-suppositions that I do not agree with. And I don't think I presupposed things you did not agree with. I reacted on the things you said. If I understood it incorrectly it might be a good idea to correct that.

It sounds like your grandpa never sat down and asked these questions. If he did, he wouldn't be so down! Man, I love philosophy.
You must be trolling. Is this why mental strain doesn't cause death?
 

CCarter

If they cease to believe in u, do u even exist?
Staff member
BuSo Pro
Boot Camp
Digital Strategist
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
2,769
Likes
6,149
Degree
6
We're at 30.3 million unemployed - 3.84 million added week of April 25th:

 

CCarter

If they cease to believe in u, do u even exist?
Staff member
BuSo Pro
Boot Camp
Digital Strategist
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
2,769
Likes
6,149
Degree
6
I’m not sure who is trolling with this “Summer Quarantine” nonsense but Miami Beach had a ton of traffic. Ain’t no one listening anymore...



Enough. That’s enough. We’re done.
 
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
374
Likes
273
Degree
1
"There are two fronts where Black people are being hit hard by the pandemic: the physical and the financial. A long history of government neglect and unequal access to health care has meant that Black people have been disprortionately killed by this virus. The decision of some states to reopen as the number of positive cases continues to grow feels like a big ole racist F-you to Black Americans. It’s almost like once they found out Black people were the most impacted, they became even less concerned."
source: https://www.teenvogue.com/story/reopen-protests-coronavirus-racism

**cough** If you're a minority, catholic, woman, LGBT, or anyone that's not WASP, you should back the democrats. The republicans do not have your best interest in mind nor are they even concerned about your well being.
 

EyesExist

White Hat Genius
BuSo Pro
Joined
Nov 7, 2016
Messages
843
Likes
310
Degree
2
In the end. All that matters is you and who's in your house.

That's all this virus proves about live to me.

You can tell people 99 of 100 steps on how to have a happy, healthy, stable life. What we're about to witness in the major countries of the world, where immune systems aren't going through the 'workout of 2nd and 3rd world people, is a lot of privileged deaths.
 

eliquid

Digital Strategist
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Messages
800
Likes
1,741
Degree
3
"There are two fronts where Black people are being hit hard by the pandemic: the physical and the financial. A long history of government neglect and unequal access to health care has meant that Black people have been disprortionately killed by this virus. The decision of some states to reopen as the number of positive cases continues to grow feels like a big ole racist F-you to Black Americans. It’s almost like once they found out Black people were the most impacted, they became even less concerned."
source: https://www.teenvogue.com/story/reopen-protests-coronavirus-racism

**cough** If you're a minority, catholic, woman, LGBT, or anyone that's not WASP, you should back the democrats. The republicans do not have your best interest in mind nor are they even concerned about your well being.
Your source for COVID-19 and political views about it are influenced by Teen Vogue?

Also, can you point out where the government neglected non WASP people or where non WASP people had unequal access to healthcare? I mean, direct points, not theoretical. Mostly interested in the healthcare part TBH.

Maybe you are posting that in reference only to the teenvogue story and these aren't also your views, but just wanted to check.

Dont make points about something that happened 200 years ago, or even 60 years ago. Let's keep it current please, like our own lifetimes.
 

Jared

Breaking the Shackles of a Lifetime of Bummery
Joined
Apr 27, 2015
Messages
370
Likes
343
Degree
2
Your source for COVID-19 and political views about it are influenced by Teen Vogue?
Lol

And I thought the link to BuzzFeed News was hitting rock bottom . . .
 

Stones

BuSo Pro
Joined
Nov 3, 2018
Messages
67
Likes
41
Degree
0
@Jared there have been some suggestions that the severity of a CV case can be linked to vitamin D deficiency. You may not be aware but our main source of Vit D is the sun and different groups of people have varying abilities to produce this.

Africans living in northern climes are perhaps the worst affected and often must supplement their diet with tablets.

This could be a factor in the oft reported imbalance in severe CV cases across the different racial and socioeconomic groups.
 
Joined
Mar 19, 2019
Messages
100
Likes
88
Degree
0
I love how the coverage about the COVID-19 virus is becoming less and less about the virus- really displays that people (media companies, certain politicians and political parties) are just out to capitalize on the situation at this point for their own gain. On the news they aren’t even talking numbers at this point, just doomsday political propaganda and worst-case scenarios.