Coronavirus Hysteria

[DanielS]

I'm not typically one to take part in these threads, but there's a few fundamental arguments that need stated here:

1. It is possible to die from covid under 60. Examples:
Young nurse and mother who joked about vaccines
Another mother who orphaned her 12 year old son
Another young mother who left behind four children
Healthy Republican Senator (52) leaves behind wife and two children

There's plenty more examples, but I don't have all day. This is just to show you CAN die from it without a vaccine, even if you're young and healthy. But honestly that's not important.

2. What's important is that you don't spread the virus.
If you're young, healthy, and have no medical issues, that's great. Yes, you only have a minor risk of dying without a vaccine. But what about everyone else in your life?

Sure, you may not be over 60, obese, or have medical issues. But what about your grandparents? Or your friends? Or their parents?

The goal isn't to 'beat' covid solo; to laugh at it because you're young and healthy. It's to stop it from getting to the vulnerable people around us. The problem with being unvaccinated, not wearing a mask, and not caring about guidelines isn't that you're way more likely to get covid. That's your choice. The problem is that you're way more likely to give covid to someone who could die from it.

3. The vaccine works.

I know you may not be arguing with this one, but it's worth stating for the point coming up below.

Here's data from Switzerland showing mortality rates per person in unvaccinated vs vaccinated people.

4. Mandates are there to protect the vulnerable.
Like I said, the chance of you dying from covid without a vaccine are low, so it's understandable not to care about it. But that isn't the point.

The issue is that you are capable of spreading the disease to vulnerable people. That's why we need vaccines, masks, and all the other annoying restrictions. I don't do all that because I'm scared for myself. I do that because I don't want to be the reason my grandmother ends up suffocating in a hospital. Or the kind old lady in my building. Or my friend who's got bad asthma.

The reason restrictions are being put up (all over the world) is to stop people spreading the disease to the vulnerable. Masks and vaccines aren't there to protect you from getting the virus, that's just a small bonus. They are there to stop you from spreading it.

That's why they're putting restrictions on people who are unvaccinated and who aren't wearing masks. Because they're more likely to spread the disease if they have it. It's not a punishment, it's about protecting people.



If Covid didn't spread easily, then I 100% agree you should be able to skip the vaccine and face no consequences. It's your life, do what you want. But when skipping the vaccine means you're WAY more likely to infect the vulnerable people around you, that's when restrictions are needed.

I hope that makes sense. I normally avoid getting involved in this stuff but I care about this forum too much to see misinformation spread on it.

To summarise:

1. You can die from covid, even if you're young and healthy. But that isn't the point.
2. The issue isn't you, it's the vulnerable people around you. Even if you're healthy, you can spread the disease to them.
3. Masks, vaccines, and so on are there to minimize everyone spreading covid to those vulnerable people.
4. Restrictions on no-masks/unvaccinated are there because of the massively increased danger of spreading the disease. It's not your life that matters, it's the impact you have on the vulnerable people around you.

What's the end goal? How does this end? If the virus can still be spread among the vaccinated, and the vaccine doesn't kill the virus, then how will anything ever change with the standards currently being employed?

It doesn't matter if you have 4 doses of 0 doses- you can still kill Grandma. This is the reality of the situation. Remember how old age homes were during the flu season? Old people have always been at risk of dying from colds, flu, viruses, etc. We used to just not visit them if we were sick and we'd use sanitizer like crazy.

Also, how selfish is it of people to expect everyone else to stop living their lives for their own safety? I have sympathy for cancer patients, those with diseases from birth, etc. but I do not have much sympathy for most obese people, for example, because they ate like crap and knew they were doing so. They made the conscious choice to not be active.

The reality is, masks have never been as effective as they've been led to be, vaccines aren't the miracle that the world was promised, and COVID is never going to go away. So, what do we do? Do we continue locking people in their houses, ruining the development of children, and letting governments and corporations trample over our freedoms when convenient? Or, do we say, "I just won't see Grandma because I went to a party last night, and I'll take 2 tests before visiting her (when I do) just to be safe."

 

[MinstrelJunkie]

What's the end goal? How does this end? If the virus can still be spread among the vaccinated, and the vaccine doesn't kill the virus, then how will anything ever change with the standards currently being employed?

End goal is safe herd immunity through vaccines and medicines that counteract the effects of the virus. There's been some great developments on that front lately.

It doesn't matter if you have 4 doses of 0 doses- you can still kill Grandma.

4 doses vs 0 doses means you likely will resist the virus or not get symptoms (particularly coughing). That means you're much less likely to spread it to Grandma. This also helps keep hospital wards free for those who really need them.

Also, how selfish is it of people to expect everyone else to stop living their lives for their own safety? I have sympathy for cancer patients, those with diseases from birth, etc. but I do not have much sympathy for most obese people, for example, because they ate like crap and knew they were doing so. They made the conscious choice to not be active.

I kind of agree with you on obese people, although many are that way because they've been thrown a rough hand in life and food's been their way of dealing with it. However, you're missing out old people. Do you lose sympathy for everyone over the age of 60?

I'd argue the selfish act is to skip being vaccinated and wearing a mask when you know you're putting other people's lives at risk. In Scotland we've stuck to this and, outside of the initial lockdown, life's not changed much. Everyone's vaccinated, we wear masks when in public, but we can still hang with friends and see family like normal. I've been to bars, a club, and stadiums packed full of people this year - all without a mask. This is now on pause due to Omnicron but should return next year.

The reality is, masks have never been as effective as they've been led to be, vaccines aren't the miracle that the world was promised, and COVID is never going to go away.

I get where you're coming from, but I think you're blowing this up more than it needs to be.

• Masks are super effective. Look at any study done. Here's a list, I'm not going to start digging out results though. I'm working and replying here is an exception. Here's a quote for you:
  • At least ten studies have confirmed the benefit of universal masking in community level analyses: in a unified hospital system,47 a German city,48 two U.S. states,49, 50 a panel of 15 U.S. states and Washington, D.C.,51, 52 as well as both Canada53 and the U.S.54-56 nationally. Each analysis demonstrated that, following directives from organizational and political leadership for universal masking, new infections fell significantly. Two of these studies51, 52 and an additional analysis of data from 200 countries that included the U.S.56 also demonstrated reductions in mortality.
• Covid vaccines are the same as every other vaccine. What did you expect? They're not made of magic, they work the same as every other vaccine. It's how we solved Polio, Tetanus, Rabies, Hepatitis, Influenza, and tons of others. Vaccines are our best answer to disease. Look at this chart on life expectancy:
  
  
  
  Vaccines started to get used in the late 1800's, particularly in the UK. They are one of the key drivers to why we live old enough to get grey hairs.
  
  
• Covid may not ever 'go away', but we'll be able to control it - like the flu. Lately much of the world has had an insane amount of cases but the death count is so much more controlled, and we're still developing better and stronger solutions to it.

 

[CCarter]

It's to stop it from getting to the vulnerable people around us.

Fuck them.

Guilt won't work. When people try to guilt you into something it's coercion.

Simple example: if 1,000,000 get vaccinated, but 1,000 have side-effects. That's a 99.9% success rate.

Unless you are that 0.01% = that's 1,000 that could have serious problems, especially if they have known heart conditions.

But all that's logic. It's been played out over and over and over for going on 2 years now. People are stuck in their beliefs and fears and mindset.

More guilt won't work. It hasn't. You've overloaded them with guilt and they still haven't budged. Don't concentrate on things you can't change.

I'm straight law of the jungle. If anyone of those "vulnerable" sees me on the street homeless looking for shelter, it's more likely they'll step over me versus try to help me for the "greater good". BUT now I gotta do the greater good for everyone else that's vulnerable? But what happens when I'm suddenly vulnerable - fuck me, right?

If this fantasy Utopia existed where we are all in it for everyone and the greater good places like San Francisco wouldn't be overran with the homeless (mostly men, but now women are growing as a homeless population).

I'm not delusional, no one is coming to save me. If you are a male in this society - literally NO ONE is coming to save you. You are on your own. The same society that tries to break you down, mentally, physically and emotionally, from birth because you are born a male is now telling you to look out for everyone else. Give me a fucking break. Eat a dick. They've been trying to kill the alpha male that created all these safey-nets in society that allows them to talk shit about alpha males for a long time. It's like talking shit about the floor in your home, while stating on the floor. What?

If I don't concentrate on myself and worry about my own health, safety, and security I'll die alone in a ditch somewhere, forgotten. And men have been doing that for millions of years.

If you set it up where it's me versus the society and the vulnerable, fine. I'm going to put myself first. You setup the rules, I'm just playing by them.

It's not about the greater good and love for my neighbor, it's about making sure the majority of the populate is able to continue the nation forward WHILE knowing that 0.01% are going to suffer long-term consequences from the vaccine AND THAT is an acceptable risk for the government since that means the 99.9% are good. Fine.

Hopefully you are not the 0.01%.

And hopefully you are not a male in that 0.01%, cause this society is brutal and ruthless to you. That wife that loves you will look at you a lot different when your health deteriorates and you can't pay the bills. They are ruthless too. How fast is she going to leave?

I'm honest, Fuck Them. They've been saying fuck me to my face my whole life. Seems like a pretty straight-forward exchange.

 

[Stewy]

Since we're on a business & marketing forum, it's interesting to consider what exactly is happening behind the scenes.

1. Fear Sells (and media loves selling fear)

Self explanatory, but step 1 was to instill fear and psychosis, then offer the herd THE solution.

Remember the images from China at the very beginning, with people dropping in the streets like flies? Did that ever happen elsewhere? I mean, that was some scary apocalyptic shit! Or was it?

That was just the start. Take a step back and observe how the media sells fear. It's a real world lesson on how gullible and naive we can be when facing "potential" fear (fear of a cold?... wow, someone should write a horror flick on this).

2. Mob Psychology

How did they get us to fight each other, and have two distinct sides (pro and anti)?

By using a network of "purchased" influencers (government reps, TV doctors, decision makers, etc).

Once again, take a step back and observe how influencer marketing works wonders for mob psychology.

The most gullible tend to get on board as soon as they see someone in a white coat or suit telling them what to do. That's precisely what you'll see if you look closely. It's amazing to see.

And once you see the truth, it's literally impossible to unsee.

3. The Market is Rigged

This might sound like science fiction for some, but a handful of firms own most of the market:

https://theconversation.com/these-three-firms-own-corporate-america-77072
https://financialpost.com/investing/a-20-trillion-blackrock-vanguard-duopoly-is-investings-future
https://www.reddit.com/r/Superstonk/comments/o5defu/who_runs_the_world_blackrock_and_vanguard_must/
https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...nancial-risk/30AD689509AAD62F5B677E916C28C4B6

They own the companies that sell, and the companies that buy FROM the companies that sell. And they own a lot of big pharma of course

Speaking of which, how did we end up putting so much trust into one of the most corrupt and fraudulent companies on the planet:

https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/pfizer

With such a track record, how did we, for even a split second, imagine they'd be our "saviour"... in the midst of a (well staged) apocaloyptic scenario... by producing the perfect solution in never-seen-before, record-shattering time?

I mean, these guys are known to be saints, right? They obviously have our best interests at heart, don't they?

Baffles me how actual grown up adults can't see this.

And despite all the negative aspects, I feel somehow privileged to be able to observe all of this at such a large scale. This is literally the best marketing degree we'll ever have in our lifetime. So much to learn about human nature, sales, marketing, ad copy, landing page copy, and so on.

 

[Ryuzaki]

Omicron chad checking in. Day 2 of symptoms. Went to an MMA fight and caught it from bikers and rednecks.

• Chills (worst symptom yesterday)
• Slight Fever
• Lower back and leg ache
• Scratchy throat
• Improvement in my usual post-nasal drip!
• Diarrhea
• Acidic stomach & acid reflux
• Fatigue (worst symptom now)

I wouldn't even call it a "really bad cold". I'd just call it a cold. For me. I hope that's the case for all others who catch it.

 

[DanielS]

Omicron chad checking in. Day 2 of symptoms. Went to an MMA fight and caught it from bikers and rednecks.

• Chills (worst symptom yesterday)
• Slight Fever
• Lower back and leg ache
• Scratchy throat
• Improvement in my usual post-nasal drip!
• Diarrhea
• Acidic stomach & acid reflux
• Fatigue (worst symptom now)

I wouldn't even call it a "really bad cold". I'd just call it a cold. For me. I hope that's the case for all others who catch it.

Were you vaccinated at any point with the COVID-19 vaccine? A year ago, etc.

 

[DanielS]

End goal is safe herd immunity through vaccines and medicines that counteract the effects of the virus. There's been some great developments on that front lately.

Therapeutics have been proven to be effective at treating the infected since day one of this pandemic. Some prominent doctors claimed they were withheld when they shouldn't have been which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Many people decided to start calling these options "horse de-wormers" etc. Why they did this is anyone's guess.

4 doses vs 0 doses means you likely will resist the virus or not get symptoms (particularly coughing). That means you're much less likely to spread it to Grandma. This also helps keep hospital wards free for those who really need them.

I believe the issue is the viral load that's generated. Which, is a fair point. However, what I don't understand is how asymptomatic cases are being held at the same level as symptomatic cases. Plenty of people walk around with the virus and don't even know they have it- they have no symptoms. But, these people having testing positive for the virus when randomly tested should still lead to a lockdown every 3 months? Is this the standard that we're all okay with- asymptomatic cases?

I kind of agree with you on obese people, although many are that way because they've been thrown a rough hand in life and food's been their way of dealing with it. However, you're missing out old people. Do you lose sympathy for everyone over the age of 60?

That's why I didn't say all obese people- plenty of people don't have the money to eat half decently. The top-selling items at the grocery stores where I live (rural, frozen wasteland retirement town) are microwavable pizzas and eggs.

The thing is, if you were to ask the 60+ crowd what their preferred course of action was 20 years ago if they were in a pandemic, the vast majority of them would claim our current strategy should be thrown out the window- they'd have the exact same opinions of the under 60 crowd today. But just because they're old now, they should get priority, even though they'd have not cared about the 60+ crowd when they were younger?

I'd argue the selfish act is to skip being vaccinated and wearing a mask when you know you're putting other people's lives at risk. In Scotland we've stuck to this and, outside of the initial lockdown, life's not changed much. Everyone's vaccinated, we wear masks when in public, but we can still hang with friends and see family like normal. I've been to bars, a club, and stadiums packed full of people this year - all without a mask. This is now on pause due to Omnicron but should return next year.

What's more reasonable- forcing everyone else to accommodate you and your needs, or taking personal responsibility for your situation and doing what you can to keep yourself safe? "Nobody else should be allowed to drive a car while I'm on the road because they might hit me."

Here's the issue- the government can tell you "put the masks back on 24/7 and hide in your house" whenever they want. I have no issue with people who choose to wear masks, etc. The issue I (and many others have) is the fact that the government can turn the outside world into a dystopian nightmare where seeing the faces of other humans isn't allowed.

Covid vaccines are the same as every other vaccine. What did you expect? They're not made of magic, they work the same as every other vaccine. It's how we solved Polio, Tetanus, Rabies, Hepatitis, Influenza, and tons of others. Vaccines are our best answer to disease.

They (the media, governments, etc.) said, "Get vaccinated and things will go back to normal." I got my 2 doses and we're in our 5th lockdown here in Canada. Now it's "Get the booster." They don't even say "...and things will go back to normal" anymore. How can I trust this track record? How can I have faith that 2 years from now, I won't need 6 boosters to enter into the USA? It's not whether the vaccines work or not- it's the mandating of forced injections to be able to do things other than eat and sleep.

Covid may not ever 'go away', but we'll be able to control it - like the flu. Lately much of the world has had an insane amount of cases but the death count is so much more controlled, and we're still developing better and stronger solutions to it.

With the current strategy, this will not be a reality. Imagine if we took our strategy for COVID and applied to to the flu. Hundreds of thousands of people die every year from the flu- nobody cared then.

If case counts continue to determine the path forward, things will never change. Why? Because all that needs to happen to inflate case counts is to increase the rate of testing. This happened in Canada right before Christmas. Everyone rushed out to get tested before seeing family members (even though they had no symptoms) and surprise, they were all asymptomatic infections. People didn't just get COVID on the 23rd of December- it's been circulating in communities constantly since, well, forever now.

P.S. I'm not picking on you- you're just saying what you've been told via the mainstream media. The reality is, however, that the picture they're giving you simply isn't accurate, and the governments in charge have broken their promises nonstop throughout the past 2 years regarding COVID.

 

[ToffeeLa]

In the land(s) of private health insurance with market rules and where you are dinged for 'pre-existing conditions' or the likelihood that you are going to do/develop something that costs the insurance companies money, what is happening - if anything wrt to insurance premiums and vaccination status/having had COVID?

 

[mrodriguez27]

So? Why are you so concerned, they chose their path. Let them live with it.

If you haven't been able to convince them with propaganda and trying to shame them into complying with the government demands, more of the same won't do it. So why put energy towards it?

Dafuq? I don't care if you're vaxxed or not. The guy came in with data saying vaccines didn't work and his own data using simple maths showed vaccines work. Stop being as whiny as those same people you claim are whiny

 

[Jesse]

Dafuq? I don't care if you're vaxxed or not. The guy came in with data saying vaccines didn't work and his own data using simple maths showed vaccines work. Stop being as whiny as those same people you claim are whiny

I think he was more suggesting that it's a waste of your time (as in, not in your best interests to spend time on it) to convince people either way, Matthew 7:6 and all, but I could be mistaken.

Omicron chad checking in. Day 2 of symptoms. Went to an MMA fight and caught it from bikers and rednecks.

• Chills (worst symptom yesterday)
• Slight Fever
• Lower back and leg ache
• Scratchy throat
• Improvement in my usual post-nasal drip!
• Diarrhea
• Acidic stomach & acid reflux
• Fatigue (worst symptom now)

I wouldn't even call it a "really bad cold". I'd just call it a cold. For me. I hope that's the case for all others who catch it.

I had omicron over Thanksgiving myself, and this is mostly what my symptoms were like as well.

I was 2x vaccinated back in April for anyone into that sort of thing.

 

[eliquid]

I came out of forum abandonment to post in this thread.

It's been a great 2 weeks, but I wanted to clear up some things I saw in this thread.

2. What's important is that you don't spread the virus.
If you're young, healthy, and have no medical issues, that's great. Yes, you only have a minor risk of dying without a vaccine. But what about everyone else in your life?

Sure, you may not be over 60, obese, or have medical issues. But what about your grandparents? Or your friends? Or their parents?

The goal isn't to 'beat' covid solo; to laugh at it because you're young and healthy. It's to stop it from getting to the vulnerable people around us. The problem with being unvaccinated, not wearing a mask, and not caring about guidelines isn't that you're way more likely to get covid. That's your choice. The problem is that you're way more likely to give covid to someone who could die from it.

4. Mandates are there to protect the vulnerable.
Like I said, the chance of you dying from covid without a vaccine are low, so it's understandable not to care about it. But that isn't the point.

The issue is that you are capable of spreading the disease to vulnerable people. That's why we need vaccines, masks, and all the other annoying restrictions. I don't do all that because I'm scared for myself. I do that because I don't want to be the reason my grandmother ends up suffocating in a hospital. Or the kind old lady in my building. Or my friend who's got bad asthma.

The reason restrictions are being put up (all over the world) is to stop people spreading the disease to the vulnerable. Masks and vaccines aren't there to protect you from getting the virus, that's just a small bonus. They are there to stop you from spreading it.

That's why they're putting restrictions on people who are unvaccinated and who aren't wearing masks. Because they're more likely to spread the disease if they have it. It's not a punishment, it's about protecting people.


If Covid didn't spread easily, then I 100% agree you should be able to skip the vaccine and face no consequences. It's your life, do what you want. But when skipping the vaccine means you're WAY more likely to infect the vulnerable people around you, that's when restrictions are needed.

I don't fall for this.

Your 2 points above are all about getting the shots, be vaccinated, to end up protecting the vulnerable.

However, that doesn't make sense.

Why?

People vaccinated are still getting sick. They are filling up ICUs too.

Vaccinated people who get sick and run a temperature or cough are getting rejected at plays ( I just went to one ) and rejected at front doors where temps are taken.

Ask yourself why that is?

It's because they are contagious too. They're vaccinated but got COVID and can spread it and will give it to grandma too, just the same as an unvaccinated person. Is it less likely, YES.. but it still happens and can still kill grandma and others.

So no, the point is to not protect the vulnerable. The vulnerable will catch COVID from a vaccinated person just like an unvaccinated person. They will catch it when people around them are 6 feet apart and wear masks. They will catch at some point no matter the vaccination status of people around them.

I saw where an elderly shut in who has no family and no contact with the outside world ( thus the shut in part ) largely came down with COVID and died. The only people that visits them is the mail man, church members, and medical assistants as needed. The mail man and church members don't even physically see them, they leave packages and meals on their porch.

How'd this person get COVID? Through means that bypass a vaccinated status, mask wearing, and 6 foot distance measure.. that's how.

Vaccinated people can still infect others. People with mask still infect others.

Less likely, sure. Protecting the vulnerable or stop spreading.. NO.

You aren't going to protect the vulnerable wearing a mask or getting the vaccine.

BTW, I'm getting my 2nd shot this Sunday. So I'm not saying this because I'm some asshole unvaccinated person. I'm saying this so more light is shined on the reality of things.

 

[Zach]

Less likely, sure. Protecting the vulnerable or stop spreading.. NO.

This still seems to be the point though? LESS likely is better than nothing...

If it's significantly less likely, there's justification for the measures.

If it's only MARGINALLY less likely, a lot of this has been all for naught. Massive economic disruption for something that was gonna mow through us regardless.

My employee caught covid at a christmas party and everybody at the party got it. Multiple people there had boosters already and still got it anyways. Anecdotal, but that doesn't sound good for vaccines!

I'm questioning whether I bother with a booster myself. Will likely get it due to possible easing of symptoms when the covid hammer strikes (traveled all through pandemic and still have avoided it thus far or have been asymptomatic.)

 

[bernard]

Omicron is not dangerous.

It's less than a flu.

 

[Jesse]

I think this is where we're heading with all of this.

From a month ago, December 14, 2021 (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health...ariant-less-severe-better-at-evading-vaccines):

Researchers around the world are rushing to figure out what omicron will mean for the coronavirus pandemic now well into its second year. More information came Tuesday from Pfizer, which announced that its experimental pill to treat COVID-19 — separate from it its vaccine — appears effective against the new variant.

The company also said full results of its 2,250-person study confirmed the pill’s promising early results against the virus: The drug reduced combined hospitalizations and deaths by about 89 percent among high-risk adults when taken shortly after initial virus symptoms. Separate laboratory testing shows the drug retains its potency against the omicron variant.

Emphasis mine.

It's looking like this is going to be our long-term answer. A vaccine that prevents you from ever getting it is a lot less profit than a pill that gets you paid pretty much forever.

 

[Stewy]

It's looking like this is going to be our long-term answer. A vaccine that prevents you from ever getting it is a lot less profit than a pill that gets you paid pretty much forever.

This here folks is precisely what's happening. Big profits from subscription products (vaccines with boosters, pills, testing kits, masks...):

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/04/business/pfizer-covid-vaccine-profits.html
"The vaccine brought in $3.5 billion in revenue in the first three months of this year, nearly a quarter of its total revenue, Pfizer reported. The vaccine was, far and away, Pfizer’s biggest source of revenue."

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...lling-from-the-coronavirus-pandemic-pllwvmn8g
"The rollout of the global Covid vaccine programme shows humanity at its very best, right? So how come many vaccine projects were funded by taxpayers, while the giant drugs companies hoovered up the profits?"

https://reliefweb.int/report/world/...000-profit-every-second-while-world-s-poorest
"Pfizer, BioNTech and Moderna making $1,000 profit every second"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbes...-into-big-pharma-albert-bourla-moncef-slaoui/
"On November 9, the day Pfizer announced its more than 90 percent vaccine efficacy, Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla sold more than half of his holdings—62 percent. It was a good day to sell—the positive news jacked stock prices 15 percent. Bourla was among seven Pfizer executives who collectively earned $14 million from stock sales in 2020, according to data provided to the Los Angeles Times by Equilar, an executive compensation and corporate governance data firm.

Not to be outdone, Moderna executives made $287 million from timed stock sales in 2020—and kept going. In just a few days in late January and February 2021, Moderna CEO Stéphane Bancel sold millions of dollars’ worth of his stock."

 

[MinstrelJunkie]

There's too much to reply to here, but I want to highlight things that are unproven factual claims rather than opinions, which everyone is entitled to. Though personally I think you should only be entitled to an informed opinion, but that's a whole other thing.

Therapeutics have been proven to be effective at treating the infected since day one of this pandemic. Some prominent doctors claimed they were withheld when they shouldn't have been which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

Proof? Are you talking about Invermectin etc? That was shown to be essentially useless and discredited by doctors.

However, what I don't understand is how asymptomatic cases are being held at the same level as symptomatic cases. Plenty of people walk around with the virus and don't even know they have it- they have no symptoms. But, these people having testing positive for the virus when randomly tested should still lead to a lockdown every 3 months?

You are still contagious without symptoms. Less contagious than someone with a frequent cough, but you can still easily spread it. If you are infected with a contagious virus, you need to quarantine - feel like that's a simple enough concept.

Also, lockdowns come from the virus spreading beyond our control - which is avoided by people following guidelines properly. Not the other way around.

they'd have the exact same opinions of the under 60 crowd today

Almost all under 60's I know here are of the opinion that the guidelines are necessary and ideally they don't want to give a disease to their family. We genuinely all look down at people who are ignoring the guidelines and making the situation worse for everyone else. This seems to be different in the US/Canada I guess?

What's more reasonable- forcing everyone else to accommodate you and your needs, or taking personal responsibility for your situation and doing what you can to keep yourself safe?

You're being super dramatic here. It's not a grumpy group of pensioners demanding people make them a priority. It's health services saying "guys, please don't fuck about or our hospital emergency departments are going to overflow.".

Taking a vaccine, wearing a mask, and sanitizing are hardly hard to deal with. But you're saying this is huge a hardship for you, that instead you want everyone who's vulnerable to live in a prison? Bearing in mind that many of these people are essential to our workforce.

With the current strategy, this will not be a reality. Imagine if we took our strategy for COVID and applied to to the flu. Hundreds of thousands of people die every year from the flu- nobody cared then.

If you're over a certain age you need a flu vaccine. If you're working with vulnerable people, you need a flu vaccine. Why? Because you can kill them if you endanger them.

The flu and covid are very different - there's a good comparison by the CDC here. Essentially, covid has more serious symptoms, spreads MUCH easier, and causes more deaths per infected than the flu. If we get covid down to managing it like the flu then that's a victory.

I'm not picking on you- you're just saying what you've been told via the mainstream media. The reality is, however, that the picture they're giving you simply isn't accurate, and the governments in charge have broken their promises nonstop throughout the past 2 years regarding COVID.

No worries and likewise to everyone here. I do think that there's been a massive disconnect between the North American governments in how they've handled this. Here in the UK we're critical of our government but everyone's generally on the same side in acting against this virus to protect our public health service. No-one profits from a public health crisis here (and our guidelines are the same as yours).

People vaccinated are still getting sick. They are filling up ICUs too.

Vaccinated people who get sick and run a temperature or cough are getting rejected at plays ( I just went to one ) and rejected at front doors where temps are taken.

Ask yourself why that is?

It's because they are contagious too.

@eliquid sorry this has pulled you out of a good break. I would say the same to you as to Daniel - please back up your statements with data / sources.

Vaccinated people don't fill up the ICU. That's the point. Vaccination means higher chance to resist the virus and avoid serious symptoms if you do catch it. Source:

Covid-19 is no longer a disease of the vaccinated, the head of the Oxford jab programme has said.

The “ongoing horror” of patients gasping for breath in hospital is now “largely restricted” to people who are unvaccinated, according to Prof Sir Andrew Pollard.

You're correct on the second point - vaccinated people are still contagious. Showing symptoms during a pandemic means you shouldn't be in a public place. It sucks, but that's how it needs to be to protect the people around you.

You aren't going to protect the vulnerable wearing a mask or getting the vaccine.

C'mon man. Are you really standing by this statement? I'm here to help but I feel like an idiot making an effort to even Google this for you.

Masks obviously reduce you spreading the disease and the chance of you getting the disease. For vaccines, here you go:

any associated transmission risk is substantially reduced in vaccinated people: even for Delta, evidence suggests fully vaccinated people who become infected are infectious for shorter periods of time than unvaccinated people infected with Delta. While vaccine effectiveness against emerging and other SARS-CoV-2 variants will continue to be assessed, available evidence suggests that the COVID-19 vaccines approved or authorized in the United States offer substantial protection against hospitalization and death from emerging variants, including the Delta variant.

BTW, I'm getting my 2nd shot this Sunday. So I'm not saying this because I'm some asshole unvaccinated person. I'm saying this so more light is shined on the reality of things.

Good to hear, hope I can help make you see that this isn't some annoying thing you need to do just to go see a movie. You're actively helping to protect people and keeping wards open in hospitals.

Omicron is not dangerous.

It's less than a flu.

@bernard This is the second time you've posted misinformation without anything to back it up. You're sharing your unqualified opinion (I'm assuming you're not a doctor) like it's a fact. Yes, many people report flu-like symptoms from Omnicron, mostly those who are protected by a vaccine. That doesn't mean it's still dangerous if you react badly, and it's WAY more contagious than the flu. Comparison by the CDC here, same one I linked above.

I would ask that you guys who keep making claims about COVID provide at least some evidence or data to backup your statements. It's a lot of effort to pull all these sources up for you, but I'm hoping to help inform people that might be on the fence. If you keep making false claims I'm just going to start asking for evidence rather than spending the time to reply to you fully.

 

[eliquid]

@eliquid sorry this has pulled you out of a good break. I would say the same to you as to Daniel - please back up your statements with data / sources.

Vaccinated people don't fill up the ICU. That's the point. Vaccination means higher chance to resist the virus and avoid serious symptoms if you do catch it. Source:
You're correct on the second point - vaccinated people are still contagious. Showing symptoms during a pandemic means you shouldn't be in a public place. It sucks, but that's how it needs to be to protect the people around you.

nah, its all good on the break, Im going to go back in a day or 2.

Didn't someone here, pro-vaccine, just say the ICU's were split 50% unvac and 50% vac? To me, that seems to be data that vaccinated people fill up the ICU too.

If I read that wrong, my bad though.

C'mon man. Are you really standing by this statement? I'm here to help but I feel like an idiot making an effort to even Google this for you.

Masks obviously reduce you spreading the disease and the chance of you getting the disease. For vaccines, here you go:

What I sad was "You aren't going to protect the vulnerable wearing a mask or getting the vaccine."

Lessening the risk, TO ME, doesn't mean protection. Wearing a seatbelt doesn't protect me from a fatal crash, it just lessens the risk. I am not really "protected", I'm just lessening the odds of myself meeting death. Maybe other people feel lessening the risk = protection, but that's not my belief or vocab.

Grandma isn't going to be protected by you or me wearing a mask or getting the vaccine. If I get the vaccine, get sick and contagious ( maybe the day I get symptoms I am at grandmas ) and I wear a mask, I could pass infection by touch. Or while eating at the table and I remove my mask, just breathing at the table near her.

There are still several ways I can pass it to her outside the 6ft rule, mask wearing, or vaccination. Like me touching her door handle and she does later too. Lessening the risk is not protection though for me.

The only way to protect her, is for her to have no contact with the outside world.. even with the mail in her mailbox or uber eats on her porch. Realistic? Probably not of course.. but I don't play by the rules everyone else does just because it's realistic or not.

Mr Media said it before in this summary, "I'm not going to drive because I might die from a car wreck". We have to live in reality and take risks and play the odds. Grandma is still going to have kids over and cook for them, and still check the mail and such.

But when it comes down to protecting people, the only protection you will get not meeting death in a fatal car crash is to not be in a car, ever. Are people going to do that, no.. of course not.

The seatbelt is just lessening the odds. The mask and vaccine, is just lessening the odds. It's not really protection. It's not a 100% sure thing.

Play on words, some might consider.

That is why I said it doesn't protect them. Lessening the odds to me, really isn't protection.. at best it's a "layer" and multiple layers don't even really protect you.

hope that helps how I see it.

 

[bernard]

@MinstrelJunkie

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...S-deadly-seasonal-flu-scientists-believe.html

Omicron could be even less deadly than flu, scientists believe in a boost to hopes that the worst of the pandemic is over.

 

[MinstrelJunkie]

@MinstrelJunkie

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...S-deadly-seasonal-flu-scientists-believe.html

This is a British tabloid (bottom rung sensationalism media) and only says 'could' - it isn't factual

Also, it's talking about the threat to vaccinated people. From your link:

Gideon Meyerowitz-Katz, an epidemiologist at the University of Wollongong in Australia, told MailOnline his 'very rough best guess' was that triple-jabbed people were at the same risk from Omicron as they are from the flu.

If it's the same risk to triple vaccinated people, then it's a bigger risk to unvaccinated than flu. I appreciate you linking something but this isn't so much science/data as it is an opinion piece.

Didn't someone here, pro-vaccine, just say the ICU's were split 50% unvac and 50% vac? To me, that seems to be data that vaccinated people fill up the ICU too.

If I read that wrong, my bad though.

Yeah, they were making the argument that the ICU is 50/50 while the population is something like 90% vaccinated to 10% unvaccinated (not sure on actual number). Basically, despite being a fraction of the population unvaccinated people are still filling half of the ICU. It underlines the effectiveness of vaccines at preventing symptoms/saving hospital beds. Hope that makes sense.

Lessening the risk, TO ME, doesn't mean protection. Wearing a seatbelt doesn't protect me from a fatal crash, it just lessens the risk. I am not really "protected", I'm just lessening the odds of myself meeting death. Maybe other people feel lessening the risk = protection, but that's not my belief or vocab.

This sounds like you're trying to argue we don't need to protect ourselves from COVID in the same way we don't need to wear seatbelts in cars? I understand that it's still possible for infections to happen while everyone's following guidelines, but you can't be saying we shouldn't protect ourselves since it's technically possible to get infected anyway.

That would be like saying 'I don't wear seatbelts because in a bad enough crash I might die anyway'. In other words, you're making much less serious crashes kill you just because there's a sliver of a chance the protection won't be enough in a huge crash.

Mr Media said it before in this summary, "I'm not going to drive because I might die from a car wreck"

I believe this was in response to someone saying they wouldn't take the vaccine because they might die from side effects. I won't put meaning behind someone else's words though.

 

[Jesse]

This here folks is precisely what's happening. Big profits from subscription products (vaccines with boosters, pills, testing kits, masks...):

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/04/business/pfizer-covid-vaccine-profits.html
"The vaccine brought in $3.5 billion in revenue in the first three months of this year, nearly a quarter of its total revenue, Pfizer reported. The vaccine was, far and away, Pfizer’s biggest source of revenue."

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...lling-from-the-coronavirus-pandemic-pllwvmn8g
"The rollout of the global Covid vaccine programme shows humanity at its very best, right? So how come many vaccine projects were funded by taxpayers, while the giant drugs companies hoovered up the profits?"

https://reliefweb.int/report/world/...000-profit-every-second-while-world-s-poorest
"Pfizer, BioNTech and Moderna making $1,000 profit every second"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbes...-into-big-pharma-albert-bourla-moncef-slaoui/
"On November 9, the day Pfizer announced its more than 90 percent vaccine efficacy, Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla sold more than half of his holdings—62 percent. It was a good day to sell—the positive news jacked stock prices 15 percent. Bourla was among seven Pfizer executives who collectively earned $14 million from stock sales in 2020, according to data provided to the Los Angeles Times by Equilar, an executive compensation and corporate governance data firm.

Not to be outdone, Moderna executives made $287 million from timed stock sales in 2020—and kept going. In just a few days in late January and February 2021, Moderna CEO Stéphane Bancel sold millions of dollars’ worth of his stock."

It's incredibly inspiring and makes me wish I would have figured more things out about where I was going wrong in life so that I would have been better positioned to take advantage of it.

 

[Stewy]

This is a British tabloid (bottom rung sensationalism media) and only says 'could' - it isn't factual

Also, it's talking about the threat to vaccinated people.

Is this better boss: https://time.com/6138293/omicron-symptoms-covid-19/

Hope it suits your source preferences.

Here are some of the scariest parts, really frightening stuff, straight out of a Stephen King novel:

"Reports have varied. But overall, “this Omicron variant is acting more like a normal coronavirus,” such as those that cause the common cold, says Dr. Stephanie Sterling, an infectious diseases physician at NYU Langone Health."

"the five most common symptoms associated with Omicron are runny nose, headache, fatigue, sneezing and sore throat."

"South Africa’s largest health insurer listed nasal congestion, sore or scratchy throat, dry cough and lower back pain as common Omicron symptoms. And a small study from Norway found that, among people in one case cluster, a cough was the most common symptom associated with the variant, followed by runny nose and fatigue."

That's it folks, let's shut everything down. Put an end to society. These pharma company shareholders must be having a good laugh looking at us woke kittens.

 

[MinstrelJunkie]

Is this better boss: https://time.com/6138293/omicron-symptoms-covid-19/

Hope it suits your source preferences.

Here are some of the scariest parts, really frightening stuff, straight out of a Stephen King novel:

"Reports have varied. But overall, “this Omicron variant is acting more like a normal coronavirus,” such as those that cause the common cold, says Dr. Stephanie Sterling, an infectious diseases physician at NYU Langone Health."

"the five most common symptoms associated with Omicron are runny nose, headache, fatigue, sneezing and sore throat."

"South Africa’s largest health insurer listed nasal congestion, sore or scratchy throat, dry cough and lower back pain as common Omicron symptoms. And a small study from Norway found that, among people in one case cluster, a cough was the most common symptom associated with the variant, followed by runny nose and fatigue."

That's it folks, let's shut everything down. Put an end to society. These pharma company shareholders must be having a good laugh looking at us woke kittens.

Again, please read your sources fully.

Yes, Omnicron obviously appears to have much less severe symptoms than Delta. That said, it's much more contagious and isn't to be laughed at. Plus we're experiencing it with many people already vaccinated, whereas Delta hit before we had vaccines rolled out fully.

From your source:

A U.K. report from late December 2021 found that, compared to people infected by the Delta variant, people with Omicron-related infections were about half as likely to seek care in an emergency department or require hospitalization.

But even a mild case of COVID-19 can still make you feel quite sick and potentially lead to lasting complications like Long COVID. (More research is needed to determine how often this happens.) It’s also not entirely clear whether Omicron is itself milder than other versions of COVID-19, or whether population-level immunity from vaccinations and previous exposures is mitigating some of its worst outcomes, Sterling says. It’s still a good idea to keep up precautions, particularly if you’re not fully vaccinated or are otherwise vulnerable.

Half as likely to seek care is still a dire situation, not to mention when it's spreading much quicker. There are 700k new cases a week in the US compared to 100k last summer. 7x the cases at 50% the effectiveness is still a 350% demand increase for healthcare.

This is further backed by the WHO underlining that Omnicron is especially dangerous to those who are unvaccinated:

"We mustn't allow this virus a free ride or wave the white flag, especially when so many people around the globe remain unvaccinated," he said.

In its weekly epidemiological report on Tuesday, the WHO said cases increased by 55%, or 15 million, in the week to Jan. 9 from a week earlier - by far the most cases reported in a single week.

"This huge spike in infections is being driven by the Omicron variant, which is rapidly replacing Delta in almost all countries," Tedros said.


He said the majority of people hospitalized around the world with COVID-19 were unvaccinated and that if transmission was not curtailed there was greater risk of another variant emerging that could be even more transmissible, and more deadly, than Omicron.

Again, I appreciate you linking to a source but it's hardly enough cause to let the guard down and joke about things. Omnicron is ultra contagious, a danger to vulnerable/unvaccinated people, and poses the threat of further mutations into something worse.

"the five most common symptoms associated with Omicron are runny nose, headache, fatigue, sneezing and sore throat."

"South Africa’s largest health insurer listed nasal congestion, sore or scratchy throat, dry cough and lower back pain as common Omicron symptoms. And a small study from Norway found that, among people in one case cluster, a cough was the most common symptom associated with the variant, followed by runny nose and fatigue."

I get that these sound mild as common symptoms, but they're the same symptoms that the initial COVID wave came with. Cough, runny nose, fatigue, and sore throat. Doesn't sound that bad right? What a joke eh? It's killed almost 5.5 million people already - do you think they're laughing? With the most deaths being in the USA (yes, more than India, more than Brazil - the US tops the world for most people lost to this virus) because everyone seems to think it's a joke.

 

[Stewy]

Again, please read your sources fully.

I actually read my source carefully, and to be honest, there's not much to read. It goes straight to the point.

It's killed almost 5.5 million people already - do you think they're laughing? With the most deaths being in the USA (yes, more than India, more than Brazil - the US tops the world for most people lost to this virus) because everyone seems to think it's a joke.

That's 0.07% of the world population. And while worldwide population has been fairly stable, so has the overall death rate:
World population by year: https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-population-by-year/
Death rate per year: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/WLD/world/death-rate

With these numbers in mind, why all the panic? Do you see a spike in deaths to justify this being called a pandemic? And if it were a pandemic, do you think doctors would be prevented from treating?

This is further backed by the WHO underlining that Omnicron is especially dangerous to those who are unvaccinated

So your source is reuters... interesting

The same Reuters that has James Smith as "Chairman of the Board, Former CEO of Thomson Reuters" (see the "Board of Trustees" tab):
https://www.trust.org/about-us/#our-people

Who's no other than a certain Jim Smith, "Board Member" on the leadership team / board of directors at... Pfizer:
https://www.pfizer.com/people/leadership/board-of-directors/james_smith

Hilarious, right?

But I'm sure you'll find this totally normal. If I was at the head of one of these big pharma corps, I feel like you'd be the dream customer. A free influencer. Just my analysis of course, don't take it personally as we're really just two random people on the web.

 

[MinstrelJunkie]

I actually read my source carefully, and to be honest, there's not much to read. It goes straight to the point.

The point being Omnicron has lesser symptoms but is still serious issue. You linked to something which argues against the point you're making. Which I highlighted for you. Not sure how I can show that anymore.

Do you see a spike in deaths to justify this being called a pandemic?

Yes. The spike can clearly be seen in 2020. NBCNews:

Death rates for Americans ages 15 and older rose sharply in 2020, hitting Black and Hispanic Americans the hardest, according to a report released Wednesday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The report — the agency’s finalized data on 2020 death rates — confirmed that life expectancy in the United States fell last year by nearly two years, the largest one-year drop since World War II.

The largest one-year drop since World War II. Why is this a joke to you?

So your source is reuters... interesting

My source is the WHO, Reuters are just reporting it. I'm not familiar with them as an organisation.

Since your reply has descended into focusing on Reuters, here's the original source from the WHO.

But I'm sure you'll find this totally normal. If I was at the head of one of these big pharma corps, I feel like you'd be the dream customer. A free influencer. Just my analysis of course, don't take it personally as we're really just two random people on the web.

Nothing about Covid is normal, I don't know enough about who's taking what profit and to be honest, it doesn't matter. Before you go on a tirade about "see! you're just a puppet" you're missing the point.

The point isn't that some big CEO is getting rich because their team invented a covid vaccine. The point is that COVID is spreading like crazy, it's killing people, and it's worth a small investment of your time to wear a mask, get vaccinated, and stop endangering those around you.

 

[Stewy]

The largest one-year drop since World War II. Why is this a joke to you?

Not sure you read your source but it talks about life expectancy, which is not nearly the same thing as death rate.
Even worse, your source mentions literally in the second sentence: "Deaths from Covid-19 and drug overdoses fueled the decline".

So once again, I'm struggling to see a clear correlation between the so-called pandemic and the death rate. Here's the historical death rate in the US, and its been steadily growing since 2008. And the best part is the growth rate's been dropping since 2016: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/death-rate

Not sure how I can make it more clearer than this:

United States - Historical Death Rate Data
Year	Death Rate	Growth Rate
2022	9.075	1.090%
2021	8.977	1.090%
2020	8.880	1.120%
2019	8.782	1.120%
2018	8.685	1.220%
2017	8.580	1.240%
2016	8.475	1.270%
2015	8.369	1.270%
2014	8.264	1.290%
2013	8.159	0.090%

The point is that COVID is spreading like crazy, it's killing people, and it's worth a small investment of your time to wear a mask, get vaccinated, and stop endangering those around you.

We clearly have two very opposite opinions, and neither of us can be convinced. I respect that.

However, the last point you're making here is what bothers me the most.

Who are you to decide what I should do? When did your fear of danger become a reason to limit my freedom of choice?