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i think that supports my point... if the local government passed a bill that said accepting bitcoin is illegal, that list would go to zero... unless some sandwich shop decided to get all "fuck the government" for a few weeks before they got shut down at gun point.

in short, bitcoin is local governments bitch.
 
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darkzerothree

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There are new currencies created all the time... on a macro level as new states or federations emerge- European Union, anyone?
Or on a micro level - shopping centers having their own in house "currency" or villages, towns.

A currency does not fall with the government. All it takes is someone to exchange it to "official" currency usable in that jurisdiction.

So bitcoin can not be made illegal as long as someone pays you for it.

If I'd make it illegal for a shop, it would not remove the ability to change it to cash with someone, and using that to buy stuff.

If you want an extreme example, look at how cigarettes and drugs are used as currency in prison.

BTC is also quite entrenched already.
There is a Swiss bank thinking about offering it as legitimate investment fond.
There is ATMs cropping up.

Some news:
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/cryptocurrency_swiss-bank-to-enable-bitcoin-trading/42274428
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/03/40-banks-trial-bitcoin-tech-for-trading-bonds.html

There is no question in finTech that crypto is here to stay.
 
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Nobody is doubting the potential for BTC to exist and have utility, only whether it can become and remain mainstream.

My examples were only to show that mainstream follows legality... and I mean real legality, not temporary Swiss nonsense. That may piss you off, and if world finance suddenly gets dominated by that one Swiss bank, I'll offer my public apology. Until then, BTC is and will remain an underground tool. You don't like it, I don't like it, but it is what it is.
 
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Again, I never said it couldn't exist as a unit of exchange (currency), only that it wouldn't be mainstream.

A currency is any media used in trading. Two 9 year olds meet on some backalley railroad tracks and decide to swap 14 baseball cards for 2 Playboy magazines, both of those are currency.

And insofar as the explicit illegality of Bitcoin...? C'mon, man. I can empathize with your desire for BTC to be WHAT WE ALL WANT IT TO BE, but its not, and no clear evidence that it will be exists. If it were, your little list of shitbag countries would explode to include every decent sized economy in the world. Your "illegality" list is small because so far the impact of BTC is small. Every rational person knows this. I've yet to see any intelligent plan for BTC being allowed to legally exist once it gets relevant enough to matter.

And make no mistake, I want it more than anyone. I'd love for you to lay down some logic that I'm not seeing, prove me wrong, and open up a way to get around the fucking banks. I'm only bringing the argument in the desperate hope that you prove me wrong, because fuck the banking system.
 

darkzerothree

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Whut?

f it were, your little list of shitbag countries would explode to include every decent sized economy in the world.
Dude it is OK to be of a different opinion, but how did you miss that BTC == legal currency in the G7, EU, US, China, Japan?

Weed is legal in less countries.

Also, I am a mere beginner in BTC, but as I work in finance, I am VERY interested and trying to keep an open mind (FinTech and Finance as a whole is trying hard to wrap their collective head around this)

Please, at least read the sources presented to you.

To not give any more excuse for laziness, we take the world top 10 economies by this list
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022415/worlds-top-10-economies.asp

United States
Legal
See also: Legality of Bitcoin by U.S. jurisdiction
The U.S. Treasury classified bitcoin as a convertible decentralized virtual currency in 2013.[18] The Commodity Futures Trading Commission, CFTC, classified bitcoin as a commodity in September 2015. Per IRS, bitcoin is taxed as a property.[19]

In September 2016, a federal judge ruled that "Bitcoins are funds within the plain meaning of that term".[20]

China (PRC)
Legal
While private parties can hold and trade bitcoins in China, regulation prohibits financial firms like banks from doing the same.[6]:China

On 5 December 2013, People's Bank of China (PBOC) made its first step in regulating bitcoin by prohibiting financial institutions from handling bitcoin transactions.[33] In a statement on the central bank’s website the PBOC said financial institutions and payment companies cannot give pricing in, buy and sell bitcoin or insure bitcoin-linked products.

On 16 December 2013 it was speculated that the PBOC had issued a new ban on third-party payment processors from doing business with bitcoin exchanges,[34] however a statement from BTC China suggests this isn't accurate, and rather payment processors had voluntarily withdrawn their services.[35]

On 1 April 2014 PBOC ordered commercial banks and payment companies to close bitcoin trading accounts in two weeks.[36] Trading bitcoins by individuals is legal in China.[33][37]

On 9 February 2017, multiple bitcoin exchanges in China delay or pause bitcoin withdraw service, with or without announcement. Some of the announcements,[38][39][40][41] if not all, claim that regulation activities have been or are to be taken. News resources[42] also show that, although such activities were carried out by PBOC, they were not done via legal approaches, but by "appointment" instead. None of the exchanges presented or have claimed to receive any lawful paperwork.


Japan
Legal
Japan officially recognizes bitcoin and digital currencies as money.[44]

On 7 March 2014, the Japanese government, in response to a series of questions asked in the National Diet, made a cabinet decision on the legal treatment of bitcoins in the form of answers to the questions.[45] The decision did not see bitcoin as currency nor bond under the current Banking Act and Financial Instruments and Exchange Law, prohibiting banks and securities companies from dealing in bitcoins. The decision also acknowledges that there are no laws to unconditionally prohibit individuals or legal entities from receiving bitcoins in exchange for goods or services. Taxes may be applicable to bitcoins.

According to Nikkei Asian Review, in February 2016, "Japanese financial regulators have proposed handling virtual currencies as methods of payment equivalent to conventional currencies".[46]

The city of Hirosaki is officially accepting bitcoin donations with the goal of attracting international tourists and financing local projects.[47][48] In 2017, the country’s government officially recognized bitcoin as a method of payment.[49]
[50]

Germany
Legal
On 19 August 2013, the German Finance Ministry announced that bitcoin is now essentially a "unit of account" and can be used for the purpose of tax and trading in the country. It is not classified as a foreign currency or e–money but stands as "private money" which can be used in "multilateral clearing circles", according to the ministry.[76]

United Kingdom
Legal
The government of the United Kingdom has stated that the bitcoin is currently unregulated and is treated as a 'foreign currency' for most purposes, including VAT/GST.[1]:United Kingdom

Bitcoin is treated as 'private money'. When bitcoin is exchanged for sterling or for foreign currencies, such as euro or dollar, no VAT will be due on the value of the bitcoins themselves. However, in all instances, VAT will be due in the normal way from suppliers of any goods or services sold in exchange for bitcoin or other similar cryptocurrency. Profits and losses on cryptocurrencies are subject to capital gains tax.[110]

France
Legal
The French Ministry of Finance issued regulations on July 11, 2014 pertaining to the operation of virtual currency professionals, exchanges, and taxation.[105]

India
Legal
On 28 December 2013, the Deputy Governor of the Reserve Bank of India, K. C. Chakrabarty, made a statement that the Reserve Bank of India had no plans to regulate bitcoin.[30][31]

Italy
Legal
Italy does not regulate bitcoin use by private individuals.[1]:neutral:taly

Brazil
Legal
Not regulated, according to communication of Brazilian Central Bank 25.306/2014.[22]

Canada
Legal
Bitcoin would seem to be classified pursuant to the current provisions of the PPSA simply as an "intangible".[16]
Bitcoin is regulated under anti-money laundering and counter-terrorist financing laws in Canada.
 

CCarter

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Bitcoin will never be mainstream because it's not easier than cash or credit card or even paypal. I made my argument regarding this here: https://www.buildersociety.com/threads/do-you-bitcoin.1403/#post-14279

No one countered it at all. That tells me you guys all understand it's true.

The masses ONLY adopt a new technology or a thing IF it makes their lives easier than the current options or faster. Cell phones made landlines obsolete, cause they are faster and easier to use. The internet has made the post office obsolete for sending letters and documents. The car made horses obsolete for every day transportation.

Look at any minor or major technology that has been adapted by the mass, it ALWAYS made its predecessor a little or a lot more obsolete. That why masses adopt technologies. Bitcoin doesn't have any of that going for it on any fronts it's claiming:

#1. There is no consumer protection from fraud with bitcoin. Why would they adopt that when at least with a credit card they have the power to chargeback?

#2. No option for recurring payments. So everytime they have a monthly payment they have to enter this long ass hash for their wallet, EVERY SINGLE month...? It's not faster than a credit card.

#3. Long ass hash numbers for wallets and a huge delay in confirmation time = long time waiting at a cash register in line for this bitcoin transaction to get confirmed.

#4. It's not anonymous or untraceable like it is being advertised. All this fraud and thief going on with these marketplaces like with Alphabay (https://thenextweb.com/insider/2017/07/05/dark-web-drug-market-bitcoin-heist/) is simply to trace through blockchain.

#5. It adds 2 or 3 processes to consumer transactions when comparing it to cash or credit card.

The masses only adopt things and technologies that take away steps from a processes or workflow. It's why you guys sign up to new services whether they are SAASes or products, they take away a complicating step or make something faster with your business's workflow. You won't adopt a new technology that adds more work for your business since that would slow down the operation. Until bitcoin is able to address the fraud, consumer protection, or their speed problems - mass adoption is a pipe dream - I am sorry I'm the one to break this to you guys.

Use bitcoin to make money during the up and down runs, but don't be delusional that one day grandma is going to pay her grocery, medical bills, or medicine at a doctor's office by pulling out a bitcoin wallet. And if that grandma reality is a no-go then the majority of businesses will never adopt the protocol cause cash or credit card is faster and easier, and therefore the rest of the masses on a 2nd front will not adopt the tech.
 

darkzerothree

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Nah, I don't think it'll be MASS adopted... however, a lot of the arguments "no real protection, too complicated" have been heard before (and put to rest by history)

Credit Cards were perceived as a HUGE security problem for the average Joe in Germany. I still know people not using them.

Paypal "too complicated" .... well...


A CC number is 12 digits, + 3 for the security code and a date and name .. and you got to enter it all the time.

As for the hashes .. meh .. I think we'll find ways to obfuscate this and make it easier.
I don't have to whip out my IBAN or SWIFT code every time I pay with a debit card.. yet it works. There are layers that obfuscate what's going on.

Fictional Example:
MY bank gives me a BTC card... in it there is my wallet hash... any time I withdraw money or put money on my account, my BTC wallet will be charged / depleted.
All I need to know is my 4 digit PIN.

What I was taking offense was the "it will be made illegal in a snap" or "it ain't going anywhere" argument.

The banking world is going crazy over this.
 

CCarter

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no real protection
What protections have been put in place? Is there a chargeback system for consumers?

You didn't address the recurring payment situation.

And current there is no system for simpler hash wallet - so there is no current solution for that.

And if you admit there will not be Mass Adoption, what banks go crazy over is irrelevant, they went crazy for QR Codes... how far did that get?

The spectulation driving bitcoin is in the hopes one day there will be mass adoption - if you take that out of the equation the house of cards will fall when everyone realizes the reality.

If you can't buy missiles with it, it's not a currency.
 

darkzerothree

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There is quite an interest in the underlying technology - blockchain.
(Admittedly, no one knows what to do with it)

I agree there is no simpler hash wallet YET - however, I hope we can agree there is nothing really standing in the way of it.

Yes, a card issuer (some bank) will need to implement it, but that's not the issue.

Recurring payment is a recurring payment, regardless of currency.
This is a layer on top of your account.

Chargeback is also a service issue - there is no chargeback inherent in checking or credit cards either, this is a service (insurance) provided as a service.

Now, I am only pointing out that things CAN be done.
If they WILL be done, or if there WILL be mass adoption.. who knows?

Seriously, the talk in Western Europe regarding credit cards was exactly that, at a time when they were mainstream in the US. For us here, witnessing people using CCs in everyday business was sheer madness.

To sum it up:
I completely agree with you in regards to investing / trading.
I see no inherent basis for the trades.. at least at the moment, this is purely speculation.
 
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#1. There is no consumer protection from fraud with bitcoin. Why would they adopt that when at least with a credit card they have the power to chargeback?

#2. No option for recurring payments. So everytime they have a monthly payment they have to enter this long ass hash for their wallet, EVERY SINGLE month...? It's not faster than a credit card.

#3. Long ass hash numbers for wallets and a huge delay in confirmation time = long time waiting at a cash register in line for this bitcoin transaction to get confirmed.
I was ready to present a counter argument, but I basically agree with what @darkzerothree is implying, so I'll just take the next step after what he's already presented...

MY bank gives me a BTC card... in it there is my wallet hash... any time I withdraw money or put money on my account, my BTC wallet will be charged / depleted.
All I need to know is my 4 digit PIN.
Yes, a card issuer (some bank) will need to implement it, but that's not the issue.

Recurring payment is a recurring payment, regardless of currency.
This is a layer on top of your account.

Chargeback is also a service issue - there is no chargeback inherent in checking or credit cards either, this is a service (insurance) provided as a service.
Gold, silver and cash do not offer consumer protection or recurring charges either, it's up to banks to provide credit and financial services. The opportunity in cryptocurrency is that anyone can start a financial services company, without having to deal with government regulations and all of the bullshit expenses and laws that keep incumbents in power.

There's already examples of this in the funding of SatoshiDice. People can raise money outside of the regulated financial sector and it's happening already. You can start a cryptocurrency bank and issue credit accounts. Okay, it's a lot of work, especially for people breaking ground in this industry, but it's 100% feasible, even if it's not the easiest thing to do today. Some laws might be broken in the process, so whatever, you join the ranks of Uber and AirBnB - using technology to make the government irrelevant.
 

CCarter

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Gold, silver and cash do not offer consumer protection or recurring charges either, it's up to banks to provide credit and financial services. The opportunity in cryptocurrency is that anyone can start a financial services company, without having to deal with government regulations and all of the bullshit expenses and laws that keep incumbents in power.

There's already examples of this in the funding of SatoshiDice. People can raise money outside of the regulated financial sector and it's happening already. You can start a cryptocurrency bank and issue credit accounts. Okay, it's a lot of work, especially for people breaking ground in this industry, but it's 100% feasible, even if it's not the easiest thing to do today. Some laws might be broken in the process, so whatever, you join the ranks of Uber and AirBnB - using technology to make the government irrelevant.
None of your argument/reasoning talks about mass adoption/mainstreaming bitcoin. Your answers all talk about "Why it's possible" but not how it will penetrate the consumer market. You guys are looking at it from a business side, versus an every day consumer.

Let me give you an analogy - everyone understand why populations need water - ALL major cities are close to a water source for a reason. In the end having a ton of water, water piping, plumbing equipment, and knowing how to produce water is a necessary ingredient for success of a community, city, tribe, family, even down to a single human being. So why don't we all move to Alaska? There is plenty of access to fresh water, there is literally snow for miles in every direction. Why is it the biggest city in Alaska, Anchorage, is populated with only a little over a quarter million people?

Cause it's freezing cold.

You can have all the technology and know how to get something done - the business side, but if you can't give a reason for consumers to embrace a technology or belief - then you are shit out of luck. The planning, organization, and money behind it can all make "good business sense", but you still have not address the consumer side on why they'll want to adopt this technology that is currently HARDER and SLOWER than cash, credit card, or even paypal.

All your arguments and reasoning is from the business side of bitcoin - none of it is from the consumer side - and THAT is why bitcoin will never get adopted by the masses.

Can you give me an argument for bitcoin from the consumer side - and why it's better (faster/easier) than the current solutions - the underlying reasoning why ANY new technology gets adopted by the masses?
 
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@CCarter I completely agree with the argument you make in the post above.

To answer your question, I'd say that what your asking for is the job of entrepreneurs, and if 100 entrepreneurs try to start a cryptocurrency-based bank, maybe one will succeed.

There was a time when having a computer in your home was maybe technically feasible, but it wasn't appealing to consumers because you had to be an engineering freak like Steve Wozniak to actually want to have a computer and enjoy the technical challenges of using a computer. Normal people couldn't even image what they would do with a computer if they had one...
 

CCarter

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There was a time when having a computer in your home was maybe technically feasible, but it wasn't appealing to consumers because you had to be an engineering freak like Steve Wozniak to actually want to have a computer and enjoy the technical challenges of using a computer. Normal people couldn't even image what they would do with a computer if they had one...
The difference between a personal computer during the era of no-PC versus Bitcoin in the era of cash and credit cards are worlds a part. When Jobs and Wozniak were coming with the idea of a personal computer that idea didn't exist for the every day mass. There was no concept of it - it would be the equivalent of saying "Everyone should have a space ship in the garage so they can go in outer space" - that's a concept that's too far fetched and without CURRENT reasoning.

There was no "in-place" solution for a personal computer - so there was nothing to compare it to - hence why it was difficult to understand. The question was "Why did the masses need a computer in their home?" There was no answer to it.

However when you ask "Why do you need bitcoin?" - we all understand what bitcoin is here to do - it's purpose is to replace cash or cards for trading of goods - that's the CURRENT mission statement. Bitcoin is trying to displace the CURRENT system that's ingrained and in placed - cash and/or credit cards. A system we understand and have conceptualized - the solution of trading goods = cash or swiping a credit card.

The "Why bitcoins?" is not the same as "Why personal computers?" One is understood - the other was not understood at the time. One is currently trying to displace the current system, the other one was trying to create a NEW system.

And since no one can answer why CURRENTLY bitcoin is better, faster, or easier than cash or credit card - it will never be adopted by the masses. The only way bitcoin gets adopted by the masses is by making it faster, easier, or significantly better than the current solutions - cash or card. In it's current format it cannot.

Ideas or concepts above the future of "What might happen..." or "What if..." will still need to answer the basics of WHY it's better.
 

darkzerothree

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Funny this went this way.

Mass Adoption might be hard, as btc is not better or easier than current models.
For the user.

Adding "as good as" and "better for the institution " might see an adoption in the background.

Right now, I see no mass adoption, but trying to keep an open mind.
 

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I see one advantage over cash. It's a universal currency. You don't have to exchange it to use it in another country.

I have begun to see more and more offline merchants that accept bitcoin, at the strangest of places like flea markets and small restaurants.

I'm still not convinced it will become commonplace for the average consumer to use it but I would imagine that at one time the same could be said for credit cards and paypal.
 
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I concede that the WHY behind cryptocurrency's superiority to fiat currency is a non-issue for the mainstream today, sheeple and all that. But the reasons why Bitcoin is better are extremely compelling to the people that care, and I definitely believe more and more people will begin to care about the benefits of cryptocurrency.

I won't go into detail because we all know the benefits: hard currency, difficult to confiscate, easy to protect, easy to hide, easy to store, easy to transport, infinitely fungible, easy to transfer, no central authority, no regulation, backed by mathematics (you have to understand Script and BTC transactions to appreciate this one) and so on.

As more people desire these benefits, entrepreneurs will present solutions to the market.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.
– Henry Ford
It's an emerging technology. We might think we understand the Bitcoin mission statement, but I bet that very few people really do.
 

CCarter

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My biggest problem with bitcoin is a lot of people are sitting on the sidelines waiting for other people to come up with the future solutions and technologies that will put bitcoin to use. Maybe some of you guys in this thread are doing your own thing with bitcoin to help it move to the next level, but most aren't. Most people are holding onto bitcoin waiting for someone else to make it more viable.

If you are in bitcoin, a true believer - create something that will take things to the next level. It doesn't have to be great, it just has to first be. Maybe someone else comes along and improves on it, and then it goes on and on and bitcoin explodes because of it.

For example you @pfingy stated anyone can come out with a bank for bitcoin, or @Meatplow stated using bitcoin protocol for some underlying technology like SMTP - someone has to be the first ones at it, and the true believers are the ones that should start the movement.

I got in bitcoin at around $185 around 2013 - but I never believed in it. I got out at $900 - I used it to make a lot of cash, but that was 4 years ago. What's developed for bitcoin in 4 years?

The masses' first introduction to bitcoin is Ransomware and the news talking about hacking, underground marketplaces - these are all negative and bad press for bitcoin. Look at the situation with Alphabay right now - tons of bad press as it looks like there was an exit scam.

Those entrepreneurs people are hoping and relying on aren't going to want to associate their brand with a "hacker", "ransomware", or "bad guy" currency.

So there are 3 choices in life when you come across any situation: deny it (delusion), accept it (pray for an other-worldly power to help), or change it (take action).

A lot of you are in the "accepting it" or "denying it" mode. Very few if any are talking about changing it or taking action mode.

Around 2 years ago Stripe started accepting bitcoin - that's when I thought bitcoin was getting serious, but a lot of those big headliners have been overshadowed by the negative. Bitcoin's perception in the last 4 years alone has been largely negative when you ask the masses for their thoughts - for true believers that's the real death spiral. You guys need to change that perception and that means taking action, not sitting on the sidelines and waiting for others to take action - cause all the major news I've seen in the last 4 years has been bad press after bad press for bitcoin.
 
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I saw Bitcoin hit $4,400. Is that the new record? Anyone liquidating? Is it hard to find buyers at the peak?
 
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Don't sell it, unless you are going to sell it cheap and to me. Then definitely do.

We just finished building a platform that is like paypal for bitcoin, we just invested in bitcoin atms in high traffic areas in cities around the world; we are building and banking on bitcoin. It's almost here.
 
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We just finished building a platform that is like paypal for bitcoin
You taking on the currency risk, or pushing that off onto the donkeys who don't realize they could lose 10% in a mere 10 seconds?

I'm not ripping on ya, if you look at previous posts you'll see, not a bitcoin guy. BUT I'D LIKE TO BE.
 
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You taking on the currency risk, or pushing that off onto the donkeys who don't realize they could lose 10% in a mere 10 seconds?

I'm not ripping on ya, if you look at previous posts you'll see, not a bitcoin guy. BUT I'D LIKE TO BE.
I was a late adopter, I was not a bitcoin kinda girl. It seemed shady to me, cumbersome and impractical too. I predicted that the learning curve for the average consumer would keep btc forever mired in the realms of supernerds and seedy online businesses. Our lead dev got in early, hassled me for a year about it before I dove in.

Last week I gave a talk via skype to a women's conference in South Africa about cryptocurrency and why it is and will continue to be a game changer for people living under corrupt governments and/or in places with high unemployment, high crime and low opportunity. It never ceases to amaze me how much better informed most of the world was about bitcoin than I was a year ago. These women came from all over Africa and they were already up to speed on bitcoin, and they had some very technical and insightful questions afterwards.

I've come to believe that Americans for example are less likely to see the need for bitcoin because there is less inherent daily corruption, crime and struggle in their daily lives. Not that the US is perfect, of course, but life there is not bad enough for most people to thirst for the change and safety that bitcoin can bring. BUT people in developed, stable nations are waking up to bitcoin as an investment. After the fork it is only going to get better. This is how we get the whole world on board, same goal for different reasons. Of course, JMO.

As for our platform we don't assume the risk no, we just cannot with how low the transaction fees are. We do have disclaimers on the pages for conversion and withdrawal, separate wallets for separate currencies. We also included a whole "cryptocurrency university" that is not behind a login screen, education is a huge part of our strategy for the platform.